What are these efini "SP" turbos anyway?
10-19-21, 08:25 AM
#26
I have wondered about these for a while. Thanks for making this thread. Definitely following this topic, as I will want to upgrade my stock twins to another set of twins.
10-20-21, 11:55 AM
#27
Lol at all you guys playing with factory size turbines and shitting on Marcus.
I have had several versions of his compressors and turbines in my hands, note I still have clapped out s8 factory turbos on mine but will be going single, if anything I might go a modest compound setup with a TVS900 blower and G42 and am in no way associated with his business, he just carries more FD spares than Mazda Australia so it's worth dropping past if you need something.
His turbines are massive compared to the factory ones, you need turbine housings and compressor housings opened up to run them, I have seen feedback from other builder/tuners, again not associated with his business who were very surprised at what they made. As you would expect. It's not bullshit or secret squirrel designs or anything else, just significantly larger turbine and compressor, not trying to breathe through used cigarette butt.
Anyone claiming the pissy Hitachi KAI (marcus did offer them as an intermediate step at one stage too) will go anywhere near his big ones is kidding themselves regardless of compressor dimensions of any mismatched hi-flow on offer, the factory turbines are a massive choke point (the biggest wastegate in the world won't fix EMP with factory turbines either as the factory turbines need a shitload of pressure tryingto work way past their best with mismatched compressors). You are probably talking ~40% more turbine area, possibly more on his.
Aaaaand even our mainline hub dynos with no tyre power dissipation read lower than your miniature pony figures.
I have had several versions of his compressors and turbines in my hands, note I still have clapped out s8 factory turbos on mine but will be going single, if anything I might go a modest compound setup with a TVS900 blower and G42 and am in no way associated with his business, he just carries more FD spares than Mazda Australia so it's worth dropping past if you need something.
His turbines are massive compared to the factory ones, you need turbine housings and compressor housings opened up to run them, I have seen feedback from other builder/tuners, again not associated with his business who were very surprised at what they made. As you would expect. It's not bullshit or secret squirrel designs or anything else, just significantly larger turbine and compressor, not trying to breathe through used cigarette butt.
Anyone claiming the pissy Hitachi KAI (marcus did offer them as an intermediate step at one stage too) will go anywhere near his big ones is kidding themselves regardless of compressor dimensions of any mismatched hi-flow on offer, the factory turbines are a massive choke point (the biggest wastegate in the world won't fix EMP with factory turbines either as the factory turbines need a shitload of pressure tryingto work way past their best with mismatched compressors). You are probably talking ~40% more turbine area, possibly more on his.
Aaaaand even our mainline hub dynos with no tyre power dissipation read lower than your miniature pony figures.
10-20-21, 11:58 AM
#28
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I think the problem is that we just do business differently over here. Marcus' credibility is extremely suspect which is why I neither trust his power claims and wasn't willing to buy his turbos. I know Ari and BNR. I've been Brians shop, met him and his dad. He's humble and honest, doesn't **** on other people's products. Even if his turbines are smaller and make less power, I'd rather do business with BNR over Marcus and leave what amounts to some extremely suspect power on the table.
10-21-21, 01:47 AM
#29
So how would the KAI stack up against a good old BNR stage 3?
Also, these caps lock aussies have me confused.
Are there 2 options? THE DOCTOR has one, and MARCUS has one, ie 2 kits, or is it the same kit they offer?
Also, these caps lock aussies have me confused.
Are there 2 options? THE DOCTOR has one, and MARCUS has one, ie 2 kits, or is it the same kit they offer?
10-21-21, 05:18 AM
#30
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I thought Marcus and the Dr. Were one in the same. Those threads were so aggravating lol. I wish we saw some real results as I would have went for them probably.
10-21-21, 06:27 PM
#31
If one took BNRs or 650hp stock twins apart and ran parallel twins with two downpipes like a stock twins R32-R34 GTR then I thonk you would start to see more of the limits of the compressor.
The stock twins dead head exhaust exit seems to me like the real limiting factor.
I say this since people have gotten over 400RWHP and the 10 second 1/4miles to prove the power on stock stock 1993 twins.
Balljoint who put external wastegate on BNRs made real standout power at 475RWHP. I think it because he found a way to get more exhaust flow despite the stock twins center exhaust exit casting choke point.
It would be fun to make the set-up and prove this point, but it would be more work and money than a single set-up.
Unless we can just get someone to flowbench and CNC us a new SS center exit exhaust piece that flows better than tje stock one. Maybe fully divided even or a partially divided merge?
The stock twins dead head exhaust exit seems to me like the real limiting factor.
I say this since people have gotten over 400RWHP and the 10 second 1/4miles to prove the power on stock stock 1993 twins.
Balljoint who put external wastegate on BNRs made real standout power at 475RWHP. I think it because he found a way to get more exhaust flow despite the stock twins center exhaust exit casting choke point.
It would be fun to make the set-up and prove this point, but it would be more work and money than a single set-up.
Unless we can just get someone to flowbench and CNC us a new SS center exit exhaust piece that flows better than tje stock one. Maybe fully divided even or a partially divided merge?
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F1blueRx7 (11-02-21)
10-22-21, 02:07 AM
#32
Rotary Freak
They confuse locals too, I wouldn't say their business style is typical for Au either - thank god! The rotary scene here does attract it's fair share of what you might charitably call arseholes though.2 separate kits. Marcus did go by "SP II" on here a long time ago. They were both promoting the same SP stuff The Doctor was producing until a falling out some years back resulting in playground insults all round.
Currently it seems only MATEY marcus has any product to offer, sasha (the doc) is reinventing the wheel apparently.
Facebook Post
10-22-21, 04:27 AM
#33
They confuse locals too, I wouldn't say their business style is typical for Au either - thank god! The rotary scene here does attract it's fair share of what you might charitably call arseholes though.2 separate kits. Marcus did go by "SP II" on here a long time ago. They were both promoting the same SP stuff The Doctor was producing until a falling out some years back resulting in playground insults all round.
Currently it seems only MATEY marcus has any product to offer, sasha (the doc) is reinventing the wheel apparently. https://www.facebook.com/Raceonlygar...04734632936247
I see, allways wondered about that, haha.
I see Marcus offers both complete turbos and a "kit" with new wheels and actuators. Wouldn't the kit require additional work to fit say a stock S6 turbo?
10-22-21, 05:28 AM
#35
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Unfortunately I have heard the same,, however the castings will be available and there will be the same turbos made, just not by Hitachi anymore.
Your used turbos may be worth more now that ever ever for sure. I still have my 94s and they are in excellent shape. I will just hold them I guess..
Your used turbos may be worth more now that ever ever for sure. I still have my 94s and they are in excellent shape. I will just hold them I guess..
10-22-21, 03:40 PM
#36
Rotary Freak
10-22-21, 10:05 PM
#37
Hilarious. Notice in that Facebook post where the guy has "DOC's" / Sasha's twins, it quotes 350 kw and 475 whp. And a goal with the right motor up to 380.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
10-22-21, 11:17 PM
#38
Arrogant Wankeler
Hilarious. Notice in that Facebook post where the guy has "DOC's" / Sasha's twins, it quotes 350 kw and 475 whp. And a goal with the right motor up to 380.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
I think the 650ps was supposed to be flywheel, which the big ones do (at least on e85, haven't seem any mostly water based AI figures which is more common in Aus/NZ) based on mainline/dyno dynamics figures.
10-23-21, 01:37 AM
#39
650 isn't feasible, even at flywheel. If you read that thread the main issue was the torque numbers being quoted vs the RPM. It was impossible to do what he was claiming. Snake oil. That's why on that Facebook page the shop is doing it is stating more realistic numbers. And are still trying to break into the 9's on the quarter mile.
10-23-21, 05:19 AM
#40
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Hilarious. Notice in that Facebook post where the guy has "DOC's" / Sasha's twins, it quotes 350 kw and 475 whp. And a goal with the right motor up to 380.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
Quite a bit different than what old "Doc" was quoting here.
Now I don't know if I believe that either, but certainly more realistic than prior claims.
Hilarious.
10-23-21, 05:21 AM
#41
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
650 isn't feasible, even at flywheel. If you read that thread the main issue was the torque numbers being quoted vs the RPM. It was impossible to do what he was claiming. Snake oil. That's why on that Facebook page the shop is doing it is stating more realistic numbers. And are still trying to break into the 9's on the quarter mile.
10-25-21, 07:57 AM
#43
No first hand knowledge - but as he uses the same size wheels as the medico's turbos - no doubt work will required. Other than the certainty of breaking a few bolts pulling the turbo halves apart, the turbine side should be relatively straightforward machine work.....two simple enlarged holes in cast iron. Worth your while to port the wastegate while inside as well. Compressor side, I'd want the G code supplied by whoever machines the stock housing as part of the deal if you did want to deal with our friend. I might be looking for S8 twins now with fewer cracks unless the existing turbos are exceptionally low mileage.
Yeah, I talked to him and you'll have to machine the housings as a minimum. But in my case, I would still end up with an "old" S6 turbo with the 270 degree bearing design and some big wheels on thin shafts.
Can't imagine it being reliable for long.
Also another thing that makes me question the "kit" is that the 99 spec turbos got new bearings and thicker shafts didn't they? Ie he should in theory be offering 2 kits, one pre 99 and one 99+
Oh well, I guess my BNR's will have to keep doing the job.
10-25-21, 08:21 AM
#44
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Yeah, I talked to him and you'll have to machine the housings as a minimum. But in my case, I would still end up with an "old" S6 turbo with the 270 degree bearing design and some big wheels on thin shafts.
Can't imagine it being reliable for long.
Also another thing that makes me question the "kit" is that the 99 spec turbos got new bearings and thicker shafts didn't they? Ie he should in theory be offering 2 kits, one pre 99 and one 99+
Oh well, I guess my BNR's will have to keep doing the job.
Can't imagine it being reliable for long.
Also another thing that makes me question the "kit" is that the 99 spec turbos got new bearings and thicker shafts didn't they? Ie he should in theory be offering 2 kits, one pre 99 and one 99+
Oh well, I guess my BNR's will have to keep doing the job.
I do not believe the standard 99 had any different shafts or housing.. The "sp" is a different housing, bigger shafts, and 360°.
01-05-22, 12:47 PM
#45
Hey Testrun (or anyone who knows Mike, Dale) can you confirm something for me? This seems like the most relevant and recent thread regarding the “3KAI”, AND you seem to be one of the few who actually has them. Followed your other threads, seems like they are nice turbos.
Was the 3KAI a supersede to Hitachi/OE, or a special order by GCG (meaning the 3KAI is technically a GCG turbo?) I’ve read both.
I assume at this point the 3KAI, although made by Hitachi, is technically on the same vein as older Precisions, BNR, etc in that is is a modified turbo, sold by GCG, NOT technically sold by Hitachi. But Hitachi happened to make them special for GCG.
Perhaps I missed this on the handful of threads regarding these. Who was your supplier? That might help.
Also I have ignored ALL posts regarding Marcus SP, or Doctor turbos. I want to clear up the OEM/Hitachi parts only.
Found a catalogue (Turbomaster out of Spain) on the net for Hitachi #s- they list 3 turbos:
HT12-3 #047-087
HT12-3A #047-091 (supersedes above)
HT12-3B #047-099
I assume the HT12-3 is the snap ring equipped Mazda #N3A1
I assume the HT12-3A is the later casting, snap ring Mazda number N3C1.(post #2, https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...urbos-1144973/ here by Dale)
I assume the HT12-3B is the “99 Spec” bolted compressor, Mazda #N3G1
Now an interesting bit, the compressor maps and drawings that mikejokich posted in this thread and others shows HT12-3B vs HT12-3A (KAI is shown in the text).Which I assume corresponds to the “99 spec/N3G1” vs the “3KAI”.
I assume the “HT12-3A” is NOT the “HT12-3A KAI” as posted in mikejokich pics. But it seems odd the pictures list the part # as “HT12-3A”.
Do these break my assumption about the supersede? Or is this another translation issue between the Japanese pics from Mike or the Spanish catalogue?
Seems like there is some reliable info somewhere, but the handful of posts regarding these either have “SP/Doctor sells”, or “I heard from a friend” hearsay.
My confusion does NOT come from the zenki/kouki turbo comparisons (the N3A1/N3C1 vs N3G1), but more so from the “3KAI” origin, and “HT12-3A” versus “HT12-3A KAI”
Long winded post, but might be useful info? Or not, seems like A LOT of thought for nothing, when most members would opt to ditch the twins anyways
RE-A and many other Japan tuners successfully “boost up” twins. More baseless uniqueness I suppose lol.
Thanks club
Was the 3KAI a supersede to Hitachi/OE, or a special order by GCG (meaning the 3KAI is technically a GCG turbo?) I’ve read both.
I assume at this point the 3KAI, although made by Hitachi, is technically on the same vein as older Precisions, BNR, etc in that is is a modified turbo, sold by GCG, NOT technically sold by Hitachi. But Hitachi happened to make them special for GCG.
Perhaps I missed this on the handful of threads regarding these. Who was your supplier? That might help.
Also I have ignored ALL posts regarding Marcus SP, or Doctor turbos. I want to clear up the OEM/Hitachi parts only.
Found a catalogue (Turbomaster out of Spain) on the net for Hitachi #s- they list 3 turbos:
HT12-3 #047-087
HT12-3A #047-091 (supersedes above)
HT12-3B #047-099
I assume the HT12-3 is the snap ring equipped Mazda #N3A1
I assume the HT12-3A is the later casting, snap ring Mazda number N3C1.(post #2, https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...urbos-1144973/ here by Dale)
I assume the HT12-3B is the “99 Spec” bolted compressor, Mazda #N3G1
Now an interesting bit, the compressor maps and drawings that mikejokich posted in this thread and others shows HT12-3B vs HT12-3A (KAI is shown in the text).Which I assume corresponds to the “99 spec/N3G1” vs the “3KAI”.
I assume the “HT12-3A” is NOT the “HT12-3A KAI” as posted in mikejokich pics. But it seems odd the pictures list the part # as “HT12-3A”.
Do these break my assumption about the supersede? Or is this another translation issue between the Japanese pics from Mike or the Spanish catalogue?
Seems like there is some reliable info somewhere, but the handful of posts regarding these either have “SP/Doctor sells”, or “I heard from a friend” hearsay.
My confusion does NOT come from the zenki/kouki turbo comparisons (the N3A1/N3C1 vs N3G1), but more so from the “3KAI” origin, and “HT12-3A” versus “HT12-3A KAI”
Long winded post, but might be useful info? Or not, seems like A LOT of thought for nothing, when most members would opt to ditch the twins anyways
RE-A and many other Japan tuners successfully “boost up” twins. More baseless uniqueness I suppose lol.
Thanks club
Last edited by fc3s-ty; 01-05-22 at 12:49 PM.
01-05-22, 03:02 PM
#47
GCG japan lists the above “HT12-3CR” as their replacement for the oem 280PS (99 spec) turbo.
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=13 20
Under “high flow turbine” they list the infamous
HT12-3A KAI
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=68 5
(As well as a very curious FC series 5 oem turbo replacement)
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=68 6
Cool
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=13 20
Under “high flow turbine” they list the infamous
HT12-3A KAI
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=68 5
(As well as a very curious FC series 5 oem turbo replacement)
https://www.gcgturbo.co.jp/products00.php?menu=products&display_id=c_id&id=68 6
Cool
Last edited by fc3s-ty; 01-05-22 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Added reference links
01-05-22, 03:25 PM
#48
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
My understanding is the "3KAI" don't use the abradeable seals?
For as many years as those turbos have been talked about there is little to nothing of real hard data on them. At least none I've seen.
Dale
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fc3s-ty (01-05-22)
01-05-22, 04:44 PM
#50
Rotary Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I am sorry, but I have no more info on these than before. I know they spool as quickly as my 94s did, but definitely some more power.I got them from Ari at RX7.com. he said they are Hitachi, made by and for Hitachi... lol, that sounds like something "The Doctor " would say. From what Ari says and some other pros these housings and shafts they can take a considerable amount of abuse compared to the originals. Your not going to burn them up at 16 or 18psi. They will probably never see over 16 with me. I will probably keep them around 14 for a high setting and 12 for a low. They should last a long, long time.I will eventually get some dyno numbers with the final tune, but I am waiting to get time to swap my injectors.
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fc3s-ty (01-05-22)