what can we learn from the McLaren MP4 to better understand the FD?
07-14-11, 04:26 PM
#101
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/07...g-his-mclaren/
Jay Leno did a a blog review of his MP4 and I found one passage particularly relative to this discussion.
"Ten years from now it will still be a good-looking car. The McLaren F1 is 20 years old. Even now, people ask me if it’s the new this or the new that. And I always say no, it’s a McLaren F1, and it was built in 1994. People are always surprised. But when a car looks right, it looks right and it always looks right."
I thought that rang true for the FD as well. Rise Zombie Thread!
Jay Leno did a a blog review of his MP4 and I found one passage particularly relative to this discussion.
"Ten years from now it will still be a good-looking car. The McLaren F1 is 20 years old. Even now, people ask me if it’s the new this or the new that. And I always say no, it’s a McLaren F1, and it was built in 1994. People are always surprised. But when a car looks right, it looks right and it always looks right."
I thought that rang true for the FD as well. Rise Zombie Thread!
07-14-11, 05:57 PM
#102
All I had done to the exterior was the smoked turn indicators, FEED sides, RE street diffuser and a set of RPF1s...
07-14-11, 06:13 PM
#103
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This thread is amazing, just read through the whole thing. In the last couple weeks I've read a few of Mr Coleman's other threads and all i can say is that you're an absolute legend mate. Like a few others have said, I am definitely going to go down the AI route having read what you have to say. And this comment comes from a 22 year old from London in the UK who is truly loving his FD every single day. Keep sharing everyone, this forum should be mandatory for anyone who owns an FD!
07-16-11, 02:00 PM
#104
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Post One from this thread....
"but what's the deal w the weight? 2800 is actually a skinny number. don't believe me? just look around and you will be surprised. so how come our FD is so light?
did you know that during the design process Mazda formed two teams and charged each with taking weight out? that was their only job for a year. they were forbidden to talk to the other team. if you really look at the car you will see the fruits of their efforts... sometimes humorous... like the swiss cheese front swaybar mount."
Road and Track April 2011
page 51
"One of the clearest indicators of McLaren's relentless pursuit of weight savings was it's "weight down" competition held during the 12C's development. Accoridng to Chief Engineer Neil Patterson, teams from the McLaren automotive and racing groups competed to see who could best reduce the car's weight within reasonable financial constraints..."
according to this article the MP4's dry weight is 2945.
howard
"but what's the deal w the weight? 2800 is actually a skinny number. don't believe me? just look around and you will be surprised. so how come our FD is so light?
did you know that during the design process Mazda formed two teams and charged each with taking weight out? that was their only job for a year. they were forbidden to talk to the other team. if you really look at the car you will see the fruits of their efforts... sometimes humorous... like the swiss cheese front swaybar mount."
Road and Track April 2011
page 51
"One of the clearest indicators of McLaren's relentless pursuit of weight savings was it's "weight down" competition held during the 12C's development. Accoridng to Chief Engineer Neil Patterson, teams from the McLaren automotive and racing groups competed to see who could best reduce the car's weight within reasonable financial constraints..."
according to this article the MP4's dry weight is 2945.
howard
go look for another Le Mans winning car that was designed by the production department. you won't find it. every other race effort, or le mans car is either done in a special race department, or its out sourced completely
07-18-11, 10:42 PM
#105
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On another note, have any of you guys ever cut an FD body in half through the rear pillar (just an inch forward of the rear hatch) and seen the amount of structural reinforcement? Around the rear wheel arches and up over the roof the bloody things have 2 and 3 steel panels that you'd never otherwise see. The amount of rigidity of the body is insane for an era where computing power was very limited.
Look back at every production car from the mid 60's up until the mid 80's. None of them were very rigid at all. The designs were hand sketched, and calculations on stress and rigidity were done the old fashioned way. To come up with a body shell as good as the FD RX-7 in the early 90's (and then be able to produce it in large numbers, along with all the other technical intricacies of the car- vacuum hose routing, suspension geometry, light weight, rotary engine, the list goes on) is pretty astounding.
When I go over a mid sized bump or driveway exit in my FD, I can tell just how strong the chassis really is. You dont feel any flexing.
We bought an Australian FD, R2 spec a few years ago. Red car with a sunroof, the Bose audio system and leather. Would have been a nice low mileage car, but it had left the road at high speed and rolled over and over on itself before coming to a stop on its roof. I'm not over exaggerating- every panel on that car was toast. There was not a straight bit of sheet metal left. The front strut brace in the engine bay had been compressed up into the hood, because the strut towers had come together and the engine bay was literally squeezing the engine from the sides. It had smashed the spokes out of the factory alloy wheels on one side, and the outer rim band was gone. Yet looking at the cockpit cell, it was intact. The dash, seats and interior were all fine. We were told the guys didnt die. Driver was a car salesman at a private yard, and was showing a customer how the car performed, when I guess he ran out of talent.
What got me was how the rear pillar acted as a rollover hoop, and I remembered all the steel webbing inside the car we had cut in half. Those Mazda engineers really knew what they were doing.
Look back at every production car from the mid 60's up until the mid 80's. None of them were very rigid at all. The designs were hand sketched, and calculations on stress and rigidity were done the old fashioned way. To come up with a body shell as good as the FD RX-7 in the early 90's (and then be able to produce it in large numbers, along with all the other technical intricacies of the car- vacuum hose routing, suspension geometry, light weight, rotary engine, the list goes on) is pretty astounding.
When I go over a mid sized bump or driveway exit in my FD, I can tell just how strong the chassis really is. You dont feel any flexing.
We bought an Australian FD, R2 spec a few years ago. Red car with a sunroof, the Bose audio system and leather. Would have been a nice low mileage car, but it had left the road at high speed and rolled over and over on itself before coming to a stop on its roof. I'm not over exaggerating- every panel on that car was toast. There was not a straight bit of sheet metal left. The front strut brace in the engine bay had been compressed up into the hood, because the strut towers had come together and the engine bay was literally squeezing the engine from the sides. It had smashed the spokes out of the factory alloy wheels on one side, and the outer rim band was gone. Yet looking at the cockpit cell, it was intact. The dash, seats and interior were all fine. We were told the guys didnt die. Driver was a car salesman at a private yard, and was showing a customer how the car performed, when I guess he ran out of talent.
What got me was how the rear pillar acted as a rollover hoop, and I remembered all the steel webbing inside the car we had cut in half. Those Mazda engineers really knew what they were doing.
07-20-11, 01:34 AM
#106
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This thread is amazing, just read through the whole thing. In the last couple weeks I've read a few of Mr Coleman's other threads and all i can say is that you're an absolute legend mate. Like a few others have said, I am definitely going to go down the AI route having read what you have to say. And this comment comes from a 22 year old from London in the UK who is truly loving his FD every single day. Keep sharing everyone, this forum should be mandatory for anyone who owns an FD!
08-10-11, 01:05 AM
#107
^^^
There's some truth there, even in 1993, Mazda hadn't figured out how to really market the car on it's virtues, and that's why not many sold, and why it's still misunderstood today, by many owners here. I'd love to see a "Mazda GTR" too, but I don't think Mazda is smart enough to make it viable.
There's some truth there, even in 1993, Mazda hadn't figured out how to really market the car on it's virtues, and that's why not many sold, and why it's still misunderstood today, by many owners here. I'd love to see a "Mazda GTR" too, but I don't think Mazda is smart enough to make it viable.
08-10-11, 08:39 AM
#108
What Mazda didn't plan on in the 90's was a weak dollar. The FD was introduced in the 20's but quickly rose in price. When I purchased mine in '95 its MSRP sticker was $40-42k. That was real money then and was more than a Corvette and on par with an M3. the other killer was the average buyer really didn't want that level of performance. Car magazines that cryed that car makers didn't offer real performance then stated in print that Mazda went too far; thanks R&T for throwing cold water on a company that was willing to offer Ferrari performance at a discount.
I'd say this still comes down to marketing.
The bottom line is, at $42k, it was worth it relative to it's contemporaries on pure value—it's better than the Corvette of that year, and much faster and better looking than the M3. It wasn't until the next generation of those two cars that they became competitive.
It's true, "the average buyer didn't want that level of performance", and more to the point, didn't understand what they were buying, and were disappointed by the the maintenance requirements and reliability issues—both things that buyers of 911's, Lotus Esprit Turbos, etc., would expect and deal with on a garage-kept weekend toy—whereas many FD buyers thought they were buying an Eclipse they could drive to work every day.
Mazda was the only Japanese automaker at the time not to be bringing out a luxury brand (they had plans), and it probably would have served them better to release the FD under a luxury brand, and had it cost $50k and had decent paint/plastics. It's an odd thing with Americans, but we base a lot of expectations on "brand". As I've noted before, in a lot of parts of the world, the NSX (which was WAY more expensive than the FD, and no better a performer) is a Honda. "Acura" was invented for us... and look at the difference in the way an NSX is perceived, maintained and treated, and how they sold.
08-10-11, 12:12 PM
#109
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wow. what a fantastic read.
howard, id like to come up to your neck of the woods and learn some things first-hand.
as far as the stepping stone comments earlier:
im a rather younger FD owner (24), and i would have to say that at a point in time, i was still itching to have my "dream" car (a tvr cerbera). however, over the last few years, ive come to really appreciate, and understand, just how well built the FD really is. ive lost faith in all other cars, and cant seem to find anything else id rather own.
so, not all of us young owners are so quick to take the stepping stone route.
howard, id like to come up to your neck of the woods and learn some things first-hand.
as far as the stepping stone comments earlier:
im a rather younger FD owner (24), and i would have to say that at a point in time, i was still itching to have my "dream" car (a tvr cerbera). however, over the last few years, ive come to really appreciate, and understand, just how well built the FD really is. ive lost faith in all other cars, and cant seem to find anything else id rather own.
so, not all of us young owners are so quick to take the stepping stone route.
08-11-11, 10:38 PM
#110
I'd say this still comes down to marketing.
The bottom line is, at $42k, it was worth it relative to it's contemporaries on pure value—it's better than the Corvette of that year, and much faster and better looking than the M3. It wasn't until the next generation of those two cars that they became competitive.
It's true, "the average buyer didn't want that level of performance", and more to the point, didn't understand what they were buying, and were disappointed by the the maintenance requirements and reliability issues—both things that buyers of 911's, Lotus Esprit Turbos, etc., would expect and deal with on a garage-kept weekend toy—whereas many FD buyers thought they were buying an Eclipse they could drive to work every day.
Mazda was the only Japanese automaker at the time not to be bringing out a luxury brand (they had plans), and it probably would have served them better to release the FD under a luxury brand, and had it cost $50k and had decent paint/plastics. It's an odd thing with Americans, but we base a lot of expectations on "brand". As I've noted before, in a lot of parts of the world, the NSX (which was WAY more expensive than the FD, and no better a performer) is a Honda. "Acura" was invented for us... and look at the difference in the way an NSX is perceived, maintained and treated, and how they sold.
The bottom line is, at $42k, it was worth it relative to it's contemporaries on pure value—it's better than the Corvette of that year, and much faster and better looking than the M3. It wasn't until the next generation of those two cars that they became competitive.
It's true, "the average buyer didn't want that level of performance", and more to the point, didn't understand what they were buying, and were disappointed by the the maintenance requirements and reliability issues—both things that buyers of 911's, Lotus Esprit Turbos, etc., would expect and deal with on a garage-kept weekend toy—whereas many FD buyers thought they were buying an Eclipse they could drive to work every day.
Mazda was the only Japanese automaker at the time not to be bringing out a luxury brand (they had plans), and it probably would have served them better to release the FD under a luxury brand, and had it cost $50k and had decent paint/plastics. It's an odd thing with Americans, but we base a lot of expectations on "brand". As I've noted before, in a lot of parts of the world, the NSX (which was WAY more expensive than the FD, and no better a performer) is a Honda. "Acura" was invented for us... and look at the difference in the way an NSX is perceived, maintained and treated, and how they sold.
As to 911 and Lotus Esprit owners being die hard enthusiasts, ha! They may be weekend toys, but they are toys to shop in, very few were taken to any track event beyond the gym or horse track. And there I am even speaking about myself: track cars 2.5; 2 7's, 1 Lotus, week end car 1/2 7 and 1 Lotus on order; 2 DD's none of the above.
08-12-11, 07:12 AM
#111
^^^^
I certainly didn't mean to say that all 911 or Esprit owners were "hardcore" racers or anything... just that the buys of high performance cars like that accept their quirks, and the costs of maintenance more readily, and EXPECT to baby them, care for them, keep them i the garage, and generally not treat them the way 90% of FD's have been treated.
As I've said before, the "30k service" on a Ferrari is basically a subframe drop and motor rebuild... which sort of puts FD "reliability" i perspective a little.
I certainly didn't mean to say that all 911 or Esprit owners were "hardcore" racers or anything... just that the buys of high performance cars like that accept their quirks, and the costs of maintenance more readily, and EXPECT to baby them, care for them, keep them i the garage, and generally not treat them the way 90% of FD's have been treated.
As I've said before, the "30k service" on a Ferrari is basically a subframe drop and motor rebuild... which sort of puts FD "reliability" i perspective a little.
01-19-12, 03:54 PM
#112
Rotary Enthusiast
Man ....just read the whole thing ...howard ...nice
and very true ,
i never did stop to think about the Horespower/Cubic inch thing , for some reason i always shifted towards horsepower to weight ratio , but when you puit it that way , yes we do push our engines far beyond what (what is concidered )the pinnacle of motorsports today
one thing though , i never used AI , i used to run my 13B (single) 20psi , pump gas zero split timing , no issues whatsoever (that thing was a beast )
but never used AI , always wanted to mess with the stuff though
(here is where you guys insert a link for me to read more about AI and ask if if i have been living under a rock all this time )
Also , i dont remember who said what about rx7`s not being fast or whatever ...well .....let me put it simple
my 7 is faster than any production ferrari or lambo today , and probably most tuned ones too , so i dont know where you are getting this from , and i am pretty sure a ride in my rx7 will change youre mind of what an rx7 really is
some people even say that rx7 owner have "god syndrome" ......its not that , ...its just the RX7 really is that good
and i for one , really do believe this car was ahead of its time ,
now ...if mazda had chosen to sell the car with the 20B turbo to begin with , somehow i dont think that would have been a good idea , do you have any idea how many people would have gotten themself killed with those things ???
anyways , great thread ...good stuff
and very true ,
i never did stop to think about the Horespower/Cubic inch thing , for some reason i always shifted towards horsepower to weight ratio , but when you puit it that way , yes we do push our engines far beyond what (what is concidered )the pinnacle of motorsports today
one thing though , i never used AI , i used to run my 13B (single) 20psi , pump gas zero split timing , no issues whatsoever (that thing was a beast )
but never used AI , always wanted to mess with the stuff though
(here is where you guys insert a link for me to read more about AI and ask if if i have been living under a rock all this time )
Also , i dont remember who said what about rx7`s not being fast or whatever ...well .....let me put it simple
my 7 is faster than any production ferrari or lambo today , and probably most tuned ones too , so i dont know where you are getting this from , and i am pretty sure a ride in my rx7 will change youre mind of what an rx7 really is
some people even say that rx7 owner have "god syndrome" ......its not that , ...its just the RX7 really is that good
and i for one , really do believe this car was ahead of its time ,
now ...if mazda had chosen to sell the car with the 20B turbo to begin with , somehow i dont think that would have been a good idea , do you have any idea how many people would have gotten themself killed with those things ???
anyways , great thread ...good stuff
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