RonKMiller

OK, let's try this again!

A while back I opined that we may have grounds for a class action suit since all of our coolant O rings fail prematurely. We have several expert engine rebuilders that could testify that there were inherent design flaws in the 93 to 95 engines that cause this. I would bet that through discovery we could even find evidence that Mazduh new about this but did not take corrective measures since it would have entailed
providing new engines!

I have no idea if it is too late to initiate this, but I would think that an attorney would know if this had merit or if I am blowing (white) smoke!

Since there are 8,000 plus members on the forum (I am not sure how many are 3rd gen owners) we would be easy to contact and organize as plaintiffs.

If Mazduh was presented with a suit wanting millions in compensation for an obvious engineering screw up I would think that NEW engines for the remaining 3rd gens on the road would be a cheap way out for them -this is called a settlement, and it happens ALL the time.

AND, before I am flamed for wanting to sue, I truly believe this is a righteous cause and therfore just. I have owned my FD3S since new in April of 1993 and intend on keeping it for a long time!

So, any 3rd gen owning lawyers out there?

Crackers

Realy, you can't exspect to take mazda to court. It wont happen I am sorry but they don't have to sell you car that will last for 100,000 miles they only have to sell a car that will drive off the lot once you take it off the lot its your problem. Allthough most companys have warrentees but when you think about it you wont win........ I hate to bust your bubble but well can't realy do anything about it.

By the way if you think that it should be a recall. Sorry well only way a company would make a recall is 1. it was required by the US GOV or 2. it would cost less to recall it then to indivudaly fix problems occured by it or a lawsuit in the cause of a major accident caused by the problem.

In no way is the oring problem have anything to do with the 2 above reasons for recall.

jr

Sounds like a wonderful way to ensure Mazda never brings back a rotary car (especially a 7) to the US. Go for it dude...

badass7

Yeah, I was pretty pissed when my engine went out as well. It is so unreal how EVERYONE's engine fails for the same reasons. Coolant Seal failure has to be the biggest cause for rebuild. Just in the past 2 years alone, at least 6 in my club have had to get their engine rebuilt....for the same reason. Oh well, I guess it's just the price we have to pay to have these toys.

maxpesce

RON:
Just 2 questions (for you and anyone else that thinks this is a viable idea) Based on the FACTORY WARRANTY;
1. Did Your engine fail due to O-ring Failure alone (not failure caused by overheating due to some other cause) PRIOR TO the expiration of the warranty?
2. For engines that suffered an O-ring FAILURE under warranty, Did MAZDA make good on the warranty and repair or replace the engine?

If the answer to both is YES - Then NO CASE
If the Answer to #1 is NO - Then no Case.
Only if the Answer to 1 is Yes & to 2 is NO then the ORIGINAL OWNER may have a Case

By giving a Warranty of say 50,000mi the Manufacterer is telling you that they DON'T expect the the vehichle to be trouble free any longer than that. I wouldn't expect any car to last much more than twice the warranty period (66k miles in the case of an RX-7) without some expectation of major repairs.

badass7

Hey Max, I have basically the same engine as you. How many miles on yours? I have just over 20k miles on mine. What about power? Did you feel a substantial increase in power with their porting??

maxpesce

On what do you base the statement that these Failures are Premature? are they happening during the warranty period? At Double the warranty period? Triple? My engine went to 103K miles prior to it's O-Ring failure is that Premature? My 85 Dodge D-50 blew a Head Gasket at 68K miles ( a common failure for that model) But the FELPRO replacement lasted another 120k miles -Should I have sued Dodge/Mitsubishi because the Orig gasket only lasted over TWICE as long as the Factory (25kmi) warranty? and they could have used a better Gasket?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

my car has 90k on the original motor and it runs perfectly,
and there are a bunch of people on here with high mileage motors.
i dont see how you are going to prove in court that there is a design flaw when you have no valid statistical evidence. just becasue you know a few people who had to replace their motor isn't enough. i know a bunch of people that have blown their own motors up, cant we sue them? they obviously have destroyed mazdas property.
2. mazda is going to have test data so they can tell you why they felt that while redesigning the rest of the engine they left the water seals alone.
3. these cars are 10 years old how can you prove that you dont have a bad tstat?, have you done ALL of the services? how is you radiator? hoses? belts? water pump?
4. you also have the challenge of explaining a technical issue to people who dont understand it, do you know why the water seals failed? do you think the water seal is the cause of the problem? of one of the symptoms?
5. what is mazdas obligation here? do they have to change your diaper too? why do they have to put a motor in a 10 year old car?
so go ahead with your suit, its so typical something didn't go your way who can i sue? why dont you be mature about it and write the head of mazda usa a letter and explain why you think he should buy you a motor.

Mazda North American Operations
P.O. Box 19734
Irvine, CA 92623-9734
Attn: charlie huges

mike

mark57

Ted, how did your motor compression-test after its rebuild? FH's, as you may, know didn't fare well as he soon found out when he dyno'd for e6k setup.

Mark

p.s. you can feel the power increase of a ported motor - Roy's hauls a$$ bigtime. So does Freddie's. It's a "gotta/must-have" sort of a thing. My new, used motor is in TX right now awaiting a prophylactic rebuild w/ race seals and street porting. Am in process of hoggin' out its entire plenum intake (gasket match porting and ExtrudeHone-ing it all afterwards) in the meantime. Got big Garrett turbo package that should be here next week. Will have everything done so that the swap out will be fast.

badass7

Don't have any numbers but my engine started on it's first try and have never had any of the probs. mentioned by FH. Then again, I broke my engine in for 4k miles from starting at 5psi. of boost and never going over 7psi. until the 4k mark.

mark57

I'm goin' for the big money setup. Gonna have RP supply compression nos. on the rebuild. I just gots to know........

maxpesce

Same here - MARIAH in Santa Barbara CA did my install and ran in the motor for a while NA (no turbos at all) then after they put about 100 mi on it checking it out I had to drive it 1k mi w/o any boost (Not easy) and under 5k rpm - then 2k mi more at under 5psi boost and under 6k rpm. But because it's my daily driver/commuter car I was able to do that all in less than 6 weeks!

badass7

Big money set up ? Can't wait. What are we talking about?? Single turbo, the works?? Fill me in on yur Plans Doc.

nrolfes1

RonKMiller you make me sick. its 200-friggen-2, 10 years since the damn things have been out. The fact that you were able to purchase one in 1993 w/ factory warranty, and you are still pissing and whining about your g-damn motor is especially sickening. Maybe you should flush the coolant and install a 30 dollar temp gauge for some preventive maintenance so you don't have to go blaming your problems on the only major car company left with the ***** to develop a completely unique powerplant.
All the business cases in the world point to the rotary engine as a ridiculous corporate venture --- different parts and technology from anything else means more cost. It is so refreshing to see in an ever increasing world of sport car corporate commonality that Mazda can produce something so radically different that kicks the competitions ***.
Popular car magazines still rate 3rd gen RX-7's as the best-handling, bang-for-your-buck pocket rocket ever assembled, the '93 model beating out the best of '01 models in "Shoot-outs".
Mazda's fatal design flaw was actually thinking an "enthusiast" market car like the RX-7 would be taken care of by "enthusiasts" who want to learn more about the car, instead of being murdered and misdiagnosed at local dealerships by monkeywrench technicians who couldn't tell a check valve from a solenoid.

mark57

yeah, doin' a Garrett t-06 p-trim, custom and JetHotted manifold and DP, HKS Racegate, 850's all 'round on this street-port motor. Will add a GT-C nose, and some Hella horns. 'Bout to repaint the interior trim pieces in a semi-gloss black. Kirk Racing rollbar and mo' gauges soon to follow as will be the inevitable "Freddie Special" bodywork and paint job in Viper red....

...Ya know, I gotta agree w/ nrolfes1 that these cars are getting old (my build date is 12/91, ser. no. 207). I'm still on the original motor w/ 76K mi. I don't know how long the engine will last esp. since it puts down 100 RWHP over stock. Many of these cars have seen hard use as is typical of this genre of car. To sue Mazda this far down the road over the motor is as silly as sueing over worn clutches, brake pads, springs, shocks, as windshields. Certainly, there are pieces of the cars that are expendible. Motors are expendible (a bit down the road we hope). They have to be replaced at some point. These motors are not Toyota or Honda motors. Now, the chassis is not expendible. The chassis is what makes the car a car. When the unibody fails, the car ceases to be a car (of course the car can be flooded and that can evoke a salvage title, but let's not split hairs). Come to grips w/ your situation and getcha a new engine and setup the thing up for major performance and reliability.

RonKMiller

Well Guys, all I can say is I appreciate your thoughts, ridicule and opinions - and this is what forums are all about............and I don't care if you like my idea or not - SO THERE! But please don't attack me personally - because I frankly don't think it is a very mature attitude and is born of pure ignorance. It is also one of the rules of using this forum that the administrators care about. If you want to flame, rant or show everyone what a big shot you are then go somewhere else - I don't have time in my life for loud mouth punks who don't know their *** from a hole in the ground.

What I do care about is the $32,000 investment I made in their product when it was new! I expect an engine to last AT LEAST 150,000 miles without losing it, and all of the anecdotal evidence is that we blow them at 60 to 70K. And that is a stock engine that is maintained perfectly.
And oh, BTW, I am an FAA Certifed Repairman, and have built more engines than most of you will ever see in a lifetime. I also have a Masters degree in Chemistry. I have credentials that I worked hard to earn, so please don't doubt my intellect or capabilities when it comes to technical issues regarding an FD3S. I am not an expert on this vehicle, but I do have a profound interest in all related issues to it since
I drive it EVERY day.

If you are going to mod stuff then all bets are off - and I am sure that some of the execs in Hiroshima are laughing their *** off when they see 1.3 liter engines producing 600 hp, and then have someone claim that there was a design defect when they puke......



So, back to my original question: Are there any 3rd gen owners who are lawyers that can give a PROFESSIONAL opinion?

As far as any of you that think it is too late: I just received a certificate in the mail for my 1988 Chevrolet pickup truck worth $1,000.00 toward the purchase of a new Chevy - any Chevy - including a Corvette, after the dealer's best price. This came about due to a fuel tank design fault -
which GM never admitted was a problem. A paltry settlement? Yes. But I would still love to get an additional 1K off my new, 2004 RX7.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

yes but the "fault" in the water seals doesn't make the car explode. the problem you ate talking about isn't a safety issue. i would suggest your best course of action is to quit your bitching and write a letter to the head of mazdausa and tell him how you feel. you would lose a court case, you have ZERO evidence, all you have is second hand information. write a letter and explain how you paid $32,000 for your car, and you expected the engine to last longer than it did. mazda is under no obligation to help you once the warranty expires. when you work on planes and one comes in that need something expensive, but it is out of warranty who pays for it? when you bought the car it came with a folder explaining the warranty. did you read it? that is what mazda covers the car for, that is what mazda expects it to last.

so write a letter to mazda and tell them how you feel, its not that big of a company, they might decide they want to help out one of thier customers.

mike

RonKMiller

Yeah, right. Get real. Tell them how I FEEL...Not that big of a company?

You are missing the whole point of our wonderful legal system. Lots of companies (when they know they have screwed up big time AND are about to pay for it in cold hard cash) are more than willing to pony up
for their mistake in one way or another. I have tons of evidence that can be backed up by hundreds of witnesses and professionals that OUR O rings leak prematurely compared to other internal combustion engines. You don't think GM tried to wiggle out of their
problem by claiming it was a warranty issue - years after the "warranty" expired? For chrissakes, Dateline NBC planted charges on the fuel tanks and then filmed the trucks being broadsided, exploding and then broadcast it on nationwide TV to PROVE that they were faulty. Dateline then apologized profusely when they were caught redhanded staging this charade. Did GM still pay for their poor engineering? YES. As convoluted as our legal system is, there still is justice, and all I want is mine.

I don't roll over and offer up my belly easy, and writing a letter to Mazduh won't make me FEEL any better. I'm not bitching, just trying to find out if there is any LEGAL BASIS for my (our) plight. - get it?
Like I said, I might be blowing (white) smoke.......but I'm kind of like a pit bull when it comes to stuff like this: I won't let go of your ankle easily. Some might want to go along for the ride, some won't. In the words of Lee Iacocca: "Lead, Follow or get out of the way!"

Later,

Ron

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Ron, hosestly, I don't think any FD owner would have a leg to stand on with a lawsuit towards Mazda, even original owners.

Mazda didn't sign a contract with you guaranteeing the motor to last 150,000 whether or not you expected it to. If the motor lasted the waranty period, that's all Mazda is pretty much liable for...

After the warranty is gone, you are on your own. It's like that with anything you buy whether it's a DVD player, VCR, computer, car, lawn mower......

But, as the rest of the guys have said, even attempting the suit would project a bad image and make Mazda think twice about bringing their sports cars into the USA.

I've owned several sports cars, and I'm sure others here have owned more than me. None of them were cheap, but I do admit I never felt as wary driving the other cars as I do my FD thinking something might go wrong or break. Although the FD is the car I have kept the longest.

DefBringer

There is no case against Mazda here, sorry to say.

That said, anybody who thinks that Mazda didn't know about these coolant seal failures prior to releasing them to the market (they *knew* these engines wouldn't last long) is ignorant. Our cars were made in the 90s, not the 70s. Our engines SHOULD last 150,000 miles, minimum.

So let's all get off Ron's *** and quit acting like he's being a crybaby when he ponders legal action. If we all knew what we know now 7 years ago, you could bet your butt that Mazda would have some lawyers on their ***. The problem is that we're just too late to do anything about it.

for whatever its worth....

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

so why dont you get justice from them directly?? and not ruin whats coming down the pipe for the rest of us. people like you are the reason we dont get any of the cool models here in the us. the oh-no there is something wrong lets put the company out of buisness attitude, is bad. we pay for it already.

they arent that big of a company, its not like gm. mazda has maybe 300 people working for them. ive met a lot of them and they all know each other personally

go talk to a lawyer. if they are any good they will ask tougher questions than me, and charge you $200 an hour for the privledge.

mike

dis1

Well RonKMiller, I must both sympathize with you in regards to the hard time these guys are giving you over your opinion but also must agree with them. You see, I too often have extremely different opinions that sometimes rub my local group the wrong way. Sometimes I'm misguided and sometimes it's just a different idea that they are too pig headed to even consider. Either way they like to flame me and that isn't right. However when you are wrong you are wrong and might as well accept it. Mazda owners are more loyal to their cars than many other owners are to theirs. Just look at Mahjik's statement for a good example. We don't like hearing about people that supposedly love their Rx-7s but at the same time want to form a class action lawsuit against the maker of that car. Any such lawsuit would definitely put an end to any further new rotary powered vehicles and depending on the media coverage and success of the lawsuit Mazda could go out of business all together. Try replacing your engine then! You keep asking for legal advice and to be honest even though others say you don't have a case the fact of the matter it's extremely easy to sue in this country and win. The problem is that all of the witnesses you keep referring to including professionals would most likely not support you, thus no law suit. In fact, if somebody were to try to hurt Mazda and their reputation with such a horrible lawsuit somebody in our community would probably organize a group to help Mazda and stop you. Mazda has enough problems right now and yet still strives to be innovative and different. I would really hate to see that come to an end. Sure the Rotary engine might not last as long as some engines but Rx-7 owners have learned to live with that. Other cars have other problems. If you don't like the problems sell the car to an owner that thinks it's a small price to pay for one of the best sports cars ever made.

nrolfes1

the car industry is ridiculous. name one other industry that makes a product with thousands of individual components --- has thousands of federal safety, emissions, and performance regulations to conform to, and then puts this product in the hands of millions of Tom, Dick, and Jane Dimwits in the country and hope that they can figure out a way to operate it without killing themselves. If the SUV rolls over in a corner at 90mph--- then its the automaker's fault. if the fuel tank develops a leak after 12 years of service--- its the automaker's fault. if a coolant seal blows at 10 years/70,000 miles on 10% of all models---then 100% of all models are entitled to a free engine. I understand Mr RonKMiller is just trying to get money that he feels is entitled to him (Call 1-800-LAWYERS, we'll get the money YOU DESERVE!) but we all pay for it in the end. i'm sure you and other lucky 88 Chevy truck owners' $1000 gift certificate is being paid for by a subsequent dollar increase across the board on all GM cars. Contrary to popular belief, automakers and their employees are not out to cheat you, they are not out to swindle you out of your money with a poorly designed product---this makes absolutely no sense. They are doing the best job they can to design, build, and deliver an outstanding product at a reasonable cost. In the RX-7's case, the engineers were more worried about passing fed reg emissions in time for product release. The engine had already been proven in LeMans and in months and months of endurance development. For my money, they delivered one hell of a product that is still one of the best bangs for your buck on the used market.
Mazda literally lost tens of millions of dollars in engineering development to bring you the 3rd gen RX-7 --- Just think of your RX-7 as an engineering deal --- it cost mazda much more than $35,000 per vehicle to make since they sold so few of them.

unixpilot

Are you friggin nuts? You're an AME and expect a/any turbocharged engine to last 150,000 miles?

Most turbocharged Lycoming's/ Continental engines have a TBO of what 1500 hrs?

Let imagine and say thats all freeway miles @ 55 mph, thats around 83,000 miles. Im sure you know that aircraft engines are built to much higher standards than a wankel or other auto piston engines.

I can understand your points, and some are quite valid, but to claim there is an inherent flaw in an turbocharged performance car engine that doesnt last 150,000 miles between rebuilds is absurd.

Good lord, with that mindset your lucky you didnt buy a Porsche 911 turbo back in '93

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

that why we will never get flying cars, imagine that in 3 dimensions!

mike