Want to see the damage that a solid Torque Brace and a Broken Motor Mount did?
08-20-03, 05:22 PM
#1
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Want to see the damage that a solid Torque Brace and a Broken Motor Mount did?
Nice Huh???
The bracket holding the torque brace to the engine bay wall was only using one 10mm bolt in an existing threaded hole. The broken motor mount had placed too much stress on the torque brace pulling away from the engine side wall, ripping a piece of the engine bay wall right out.
I will be getting a shock style TB that will allow some "give" toward the passenger side...
Last edited by jpandes; 08-20-03 at 05:25 PM.
08-20-03, 05:36 PM
#2
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
08-20-03, 06:14 PM
#3
Rotary Freak
Thread Starter
Originally posted by wickedrx7
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
08-20-03, 07:47 PM
#5
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Nope. The engine torque's away from the passenger side (like described). I was just in the shop inspecting my broken drivers side engine mount that had been smashed to death from too much gas 
.
.
08-20-03, 08:04 PM
#6
wickedrx7,
An ETB is not designed to bear ALL the loads imparted from a freely moving motor. It is designed to work in conjunction with fully functional motor mounts. Pointing an acusing finger at a failed ETB and resulting damage to the fender wall and using it to make it point is baseless in light of the fact the motor had a failed mount. It was not the ETB that caused the damage but the failed motor mount. If the motor mounts were still functional and this damage had occured I woudl agree, but such is not the case. Regarding which direction the ETB is loaded you are all wrong. It is BOTH directions, both pulling and pushing, compression and tension. A car both accellerates AND decellerates causing the motor to be loaded in both directions. To some (1/4 milers) the decelleration side is negligable but to others (road "racers"/track junkies) it is of equal importance.
For your consideration.
Peace,
Crispy
An ETB is not designed to bear ALL the loads imparted from a freely moving motor. It is designed to work in conjunction with fully functional motor mounts. Pointing an acusing finger at a failed ETB and resulting damage to the fender wall and using it to make it point is baseless in light of the fact the motor had a failed mount. It was not the ETB that caused the damage but the failed motor mount. If the motor mounts were still functional and this damage had occured I woudl agree, but such is not the case. Regarding which direction the ETB is loaded you are all wrong. It is BOTH directions, both pulling and pushing, compression and tension. A car both accellerates AND decellerates causing the motor to be loaded in both directions. To some (1/4 milers) the decelleration side is negligable but to others (road "racers"/track junkies) it is of equal importance.
For your consideration.
Peace,
Crispy
08-20-03, 08:52 PM
#7
What's your point ?
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Ummmmm motor torques against the side with the ABS. It it was putting pressure on the drivers side it wouldn't tear it apart.........still you shouldn't use the brace to cover for a broken mount, it just allows you to use stock mounts and not destroy the drivers side.
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08-20-03, 10:24 PM
#9
I understand that the EBT is designed to work with fully functional stock mounts, I just was stating that there are alot of people who think they need a EBT, when they really need new engine mounts.
No one ever mentions this fact, everyone just says "buy a torque brace". This is a perfect example of this. If JPANDES would have replaced his motor mounts instead of putting a torque brace, he wouldn't have this problem. (No flame intended JPANDES)
I don't have anything against the EBT, I just think there is a lot of people pushing them when more people should be pushing "new" or "upgraded" motor mounts.
Like I have stated in previous threads, is there a need for a EBT if you have the eurethane motor mounts? I don't think so. I am more for permanantly fixing a problem, rather than masking it.
Jon
No one ever mentions this fact, everyone just says "buy a torque brace". This is a perfect example of this. If JPANDES would have replaced his motor mounts instead of putting a torque brace, he wouldn't have this problem. (No flame intended JPANDES)
I don't have anything against the EBT, I just think there is a lot of people pushing them when more people should be pushing "new" or "upgraded" motor mounts.
Like I have stated in previous threads, is there a need for a EBT if you have the eurethane motor mounts? I don't think so. I am more for permanantly fixing a problem, rather than masking it.
Jon
08-20-03, 11:12 PM
#10
A larger mounting plate (using both screw holes) would have worked better for you. This would have more evenly distributed the forces. Also your torque brace should have used some rubber groumets to absorb the stock. The torque brace I made uses all the above and my car doesn't vibrate at all(even w/ ac on).
08-20-03, 11:27 PM
#11
While good engine mounts are essential, the modern FD ETB is a poor design in my opinion. The location is incorrect on the ABS side of the vehicle. That location puts too much stress on the driver side mount. The ideal location, IMHO, is on the driver side, around the power steering mount, down to the frame. I won't go into alot of detail but the geometry is better (but harder to fabricate and install) on the drivers side. It's kinda' like the fulcrum/lever concept, it's all about leverage.
Frank
Frank
08-20-03, 11:54 PM
#12
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Originally posted by t-von
A larger mounting plate (using both screw holes) would have worked better for you. This would have more evenly distributed the forces. Also your torque brace should have used some rubber groumets to absorb the stock. The torque brace I made uses all the above and my car doesn't vibrate at all(even w/ ac on).
A larger mounting plate (using both screw holes) would have worked better for you. This would have more evenly distributed the forces. Also your torque brace should have used some rubber groumets to absorb the stock. The torque brace I made uses all the above and my car doesn't vibrate at all(even w/ ac on).
08-21-03, 12:16 AM
#13
NYC's Loudest FD
Originally posted by wickedrx7
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
08-21-03, 12:17 AM
#14
Originally posted by wickedrx7
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
See, this goes along with my hole point i have been making about torque braces. Solve the original problem, and there is no need for torque braces. Buy some eurthane engine mounts from rotorsports racing. This should eliminate your need for the engine torque brace.
This is what happens when you try to mask a bigger problem with a cheap solution. I am not trying to flame you, I just think you proved a point that a lot of people seem to miss.
Anyway get some new mounts, ditch the torque brace.
08-21-03, 08:04 AM
#15
Great posts guys.
wickedrx7,
Wholeheartedly agree. An ETB should NEVER be used as a substitute for a broken motor mount. The above illustrates what can happen. Although it still confounds me why on ONE of the fender bolts was used?
Eurethane motor mounts are what I would consider the next step up. Much stiffer, possibly much more durable, much more responsive but *DING DING DING* much more noisy also. (see RX794) I'd consider this a race/track only car modification. And before you counter with an street driver testimonial every rule has an exception but I'd submit the norm is most would find solid mounts unacceptable for street use...myself included.
flynrx7,
I agree. The best place is low on the driverside down to the frame rail. However the only example of this I've seen (was it yours?) required AC compressor removal and IIRC the entire Powersteering pump and bracket also. How many people are willing to sacrifice both the AC and PS to have an incrementally more responsive throttle? Race car sure...street car VERY unlikely.
Regards,
Crispy
08-21-03, 10:00 AM
#16
Rotary Enthusiast
Originally posted by Nathan Kwok
Nope. The engine torque's away from the passenger side (like described). I was just in the shop inspecting my broken drivers side engine mount that had been smashed to death from too much gas.
Nope. The engine torque's away from the passenger side (like described). I was just in the shop inspecting my broken drivers side engine mount that had been smashed to death from too much gas
.
Current location of ETB ain't bad ... goes in compression when reacting engine torque. But does cause new shear/lateral loading and motion at both mounts, absent w/o the brace. Don't see the flyrx7 suggestion to put it on driver side helping this issue, and that is the tension side for drive torque reaction.
Main thing is spread the load at chassis end (not 1 bolt!), add some give (bushings/damper) and install stress free with healthy eng mounts. If no give and installed with some static pull on engine, you encourage cracking and eventual pull out with a decell load.
08-21-03, 10:35 AM
#17
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Originally posted by KevinK2
Main thing is spread the load at chassis end (not 1 bolt!), add some give (bushings/damper) and install stress free with healthy eng mounts. If no give and installed with some static pull on engine, you encourage cracking and eventual pull out with a decell load.
Main thing is spread the load at chassis end (not 1 bolt!), add some give (bushings/damper) and install stress free with healthy eng mounts. If no give and installed with some static pull on engine, you encourage cracking and eventual pull out with a decell load.
There is another bushing on the other end. Hence, no vibration.
08-21-03, 10:59 PM
#18
Originally posted by turbojeff
Anyway get some new mounts, ditch the torque brace. [/B]
Anyway get some new mounts, ditch the torque brace. [/B]
You may not like the torque brace but, I for one will never ever remove the one I fabed myself. The damn thing just works too damn well(haven't missed a shift yet). However, healthy engine mounts are needed so the torque brace itself doesn't have to hold the entire load.
08-21-03, 11:28 PM
#19
There are a few reasons I feel the current ETB setup is NOT the best way to go:
- Mounting location. The mount on the upper intake is a bad idea, IMHO. It stresses the manifold connection/gasket area beyond what it was designed for. Over time on a high torque engine I could see this being a big problem on the manifold bolts and gaskets due to the shear stresses.
- Perpendicular load points (mostly) vs. tangental, not to mention the ETB adds a fulcrum point which stresses the drivers side engine mount in tension, rotating around the passenger side mount.
- Push (compression) instead of pull (tension) loading of the ETB. Tensile strength of most materials are going to be stronger along the length of a given part in tension vs the same part in compression. In compression all you need is a little torque or twist that's not parrallel and the part can fail. The same part in tension is always pulling in a straight line between points and offers greater margin of error for torque or twist.
Ideally the best method would be to have an ETB on both sides of the engine, tangental to the rotation and tied to the frame, so as to resist the torque of the engine in both acceleration and deceleration events.
Of course, bigger, stronger mounting points and materials would make this all a moot point, but seeing as we are trying to devise a system that wasn't meant for or engineered for originally in the FD engine compartment, we have to make do with not too many options. If we had a big F-body car we could just add a chain and a couple grade 8 bolts and we'd be done, but there just isn't a whole lot of room in there if we want to keep certain creature comforts, like AC and P/S.
Anyhow, that's my observation, carry on...
Regards,
Frank
- Mounting location. The mount on the upper intake is a bad idea, IMHO. It stresses the manifold connection/gasket area beyond what it was designed for. Over time on a high torque engine I could see this being a big problem on the manifold bolts and gaskets due to the shear stresses.
- Perpendicular load points (mostly) vs. tangental, not to mention the ETB adds a fulcrum point which stresses the drivers side engine mount in tension, rotating around the passenger side mount.
- Push (compression) instead of pull (tension) loading of the ETB. Tensile strength of most materials are going to be stronger along the length of a given part in tension vs the same part in compression. In compression all you need is a little torque or twist that's not parrallel and the part can fail. The same part in tension is always pulling in a straight line between points and offers greater margin of error for torque or twist.
Ideally the best method would be to have an ETB on both sides of the engine, tangental to the rotation and tied to the frame, so as to resist the torque of the engine in both acceleration and deceleration events.
Of course, bigger, stronger mounting points and materials would make this all a moot point, but seeing as we are trying to devise a system that wasn't meant for or engineered for originally in the FD engine compartment, we have to make do with not too many options. If we had a big F-body car we could just add a chain and a couple grade 8 bolts and we'd be done, but there just isn't a whole lot of room in there if we want to keep certain creature comforts, like AC and P/S.
Anyhow, that's my observation, carry on...
Regards,
Frank
