Videos: Right way to Tune?
09-19-09, 03:02 AM
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Videos: Right way to Tune?
About a year ago I paid Unnatural, in Beaverton Oregon, $1,000 to "tune" my engine. It ended with a broken motor, damaged turbo, and minus $1,000 cash.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about tuning. I buried the memories deep inside for a long time, but I wanted to upload these videos for those who do know about tuning.
Can you tell from these videos if this person had any idea what they were doing? I figured at $120/hr they probably did. I think I was wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgYIhLumZIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5yzkGA6l8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8n7geRCHw
I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about tuning. I buried the memories deep inside for a long time, but I wanted to upload these videos for those who do know about tuning.
Can you tell from these videos if this person had any idea what they were doing? I figured at $120/hr they probably did. I think I was wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgYIhLumZIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R5yzkGA6l8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_8n7geRCHw
09-19-09, 01:24 PM
#3
Rotary Freak
iTrader: (28)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never tuned a car but $1000 is a ton of cash. I thought Steve Kan charged between 350-600. Steve is fairly renowned too. What makes this guy worth an additional $400?
09-19-09, 05:13 PM
#5
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Considering there aren't many options up here for tuning, maybe that is why they charge so much. I was advised by my engine builder to go to Unnatural.
09-19-09, 08:02 PM
#11
John Dillinger
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 702
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no joke.. just watch the first clip, look like that foo dont know **** on tuning man. surprised that the motor didn't blow up at the spot. if u are close to pineapple ask them to tune your car or ask where you can go to tune it.
09-19-09, 08:25 PM
#12
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Pineapple recommended Groundzero for the tuning. I took it there and was happy with them. They actually didn't feel comfortable tuning my car bc my car was picking up about 100 knock. Groundzero actually replaced my old knock sensor, but they still didn't like the high numbers. I took the car back to Pineapple like they said, and after a few days I got the car back with the recommendation to go to Unnatural.
A year later I have the engine back at Pineapple, so we will see how it plays out. This time around I will fly someone out to tune. I will keep everyone updated with the new engine rebuild.
A year later I have the engine back at Pineapple, so we will see how it plays out. This time around I will fly someone out to tune. I will keep everyone updated with the new engine rebuild.
09-19-09, 08:43 PM
#14
Turd Ferguson
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sherman Oaks, California
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
that's kind of a bad story. If groundzero was near me, I'd go with them. Trusted name and from your posting it appears they knew something was wrong when you first brought it in .. and instead of tuning it despite their experience with rotaries turned down a paying job .... that says volumes in my book. /thumbs up to GZ.
I'd also let pineapple know the story b/c they MIGHT not want to be sending people to un.
I'd also let pineapple know the story b/c they MIGHT not want to be sending people to un.
09-20-09, 12:06 AM
#15
Teddy bears have claws
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Eugene/Springfield, OR
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I called pineapple, they recommended I go to Forged Performance to get mine tuned. I didn't get a really good tune, but they tuned it extra rich, so at least they went on the safe side. It cost a little over $300. I'd either give them a call, or start learning yourself. I'm trying to learn all I can right now so I can retune mine to run a little leaner.
09-20-09, 01:18 AM
#17
I'm going to assume the FD in the vidoes is running a PFC. Now let's get back to the original question:
Let me start by saying, if your motor blew and it was purely a tuning issue (no wastegate related, failure, overheat, whatever) then it probably blew from one of these things:
1. Leading timing too aggressive. It may have worked on the dyno, but it had insufficient safety factor for changing ambient conditions. There is a safety factor in terms of how aggressive the map itself is, and there is the way the environmental correction maps are tuned. You can also set it to pull timing when the intake temps rise. It is in the settings 4 tab of the Datalogit software. Honestly, if your tuner left the default ignition map (unless it is a really old PFC) in there it would be plenty safe on most cars.
2. Trailing split was too aggressive, either because he didn't care about a safety factor or he simply didn't understand how to tune split. A lot of time the detonation occurs when the trailing plugs fire; Steve Kan himself has posted about this. I suspect your tuner knew very little about how to build a trailing timing progression--the Apex'i basemaps have too much trailing timing advance already, and he probably didn't know what to do with them from there. I myself have personally posted about how to correct this in about 15 minutes using only the Commander. Search for my DIY thread about tuning the PFC for safety using only the Commander.
3. Engine leaning out due to IAT sensor heatsoak. There are ways around this. With a factory sensor in a factory location, you can adjust the IAT correction curve so that the engine actually gets slightly richer when it heats up, not leaner. Others have posted about relocating the IAT or switching to a different sensor. I suppose it's possible he tuned it really lean on the dyno, but not likely.
4. a sloppily tuned fuel map that, while hitting decent AFR's on the dyno, can't adjust for different loads on the engine that may be encountered during real world driving.
Now getting back to the videos:
1st video
In this video, there is a lot of high revving and quick stabs of the throttle. This car could be on a loading dyno which simulates road conditions, but that wouldn't even be fully necessary. He could be testing tip-in throttle enrichment. He could be simulating high performance backroads driving where people tach up continuously and then boost suddenly. He could be checking boost transient response and adjusting the boost controller. There is nothing in the first video that indicates the tuner does or does not know what he's doing. It is inconclusive. Just because the video doesn't look like every other "dyno tuning" video you see on the internet does not mean the tuner is incompetent--or competent. You can't really see what he's doing on the computer and you can't get inside his head.
2nd video
There is a lot of free revving here in the beginning it seems. He might be an idiot... or he might be tuning the three major tables which affect fuel delivery during quick throttle movements (aka Tip-in tuning). The tables are
1. Accelerate Injector (max pulsewidth added during tip in vs rpm as well as a decay function)
2. Inj vs Accel TPS 1 (scales the max pulsewidth applied from the Accelerate injector table based on the rate of change of full range TPS voltage)
3. INJ vs TPS (adds additional fueling based on just the full range TPS voltage, useful for lean stumbles from very small throttle movements)
It is a lot safer and easier to tune tip-in on a dyno than on the street. Still, he might just be an idiot screwing around with somebody's car. Inconclusive.
3rd video
All I can do is interpret what I am hearing. The engine could have a surge of some sort that he is trying to fix. Or he could be working on tip-in again to work out stumbles that occur when you are free revving and then make small throttle movements. These kind throttle response issues are common on any car with a standalone. He could be actually trying to work through them and make the car drive smoother.
Or he could be an idiot who is just ******* around. Inconclusive.
Just to sum things up, if the engine blew from tuning it was probably because it had too much timing (especially trailing timing) or it leaned out because the tune could not adapt to changing ambient conditions. It didn't blow up because he revved the car on the dyno in addition to WOT pulls. The type of driving in these videos doesn't mean he's incompetent but it doesn't mean he's a genius either. We have no idea what he was doing on the laptop (we don't have the whole story). He may still be an idiot but there are perfectly legitimate reasons to drive like that when tuning, believe it or not.
Can you tell from these videos if this person had any idea what they were doing? I figured at $120/hr they probably did. I think I was wrong.
1. Leading timing too aggressive. It may have worked on the dyno, but it had insufficient safety factor for changing ambient conditions. There is a safety factor in terms of how aggressive the map itself is, and there is the way the environmental correction maps are tuned. You can also set it to pull timing when the intake temps rise. It is in the settings 4 tab of the Datalogit software. Honestly, if your tuner left the default ignition map (unless it is a really old PFC) in there it would be plenty safe on most cars.
2. Trailing split was too aggressive, either because he didn't care about a safety factor or he simply didn't understand how to tune split. A lot of time the detonation occurs when the trailing plugs fire; Steve Kan himself has posted about this. I suspect your tuner knew very little about how to build a trailing timing progression--the Apex'i basemaps have too much trailing timing advance already, and he probably didn't know what to do with them from there. I myself have personally posted about how to correct this in about 15 minutes using only the Commander. Search for my DIY thread about tuning the PFC for safety using only the Commander.
3. Engine leaning out due to IAT sensor heatsoak. There are ways around this. With a factory sensor in a factory location, you can adjust the IAT correction curve so that the engine actually gets slightly richer when it heats up, not leaner. Others have posted about relocating the IAT or switching to a different sensor. I suppose it's possible he tuned it really lean on the dyno, but not likely.
4. a sloppily tuned fuel map that, while hitting decent AFR's on the dyno, can't adjust for different loads on the engine that may be encountered during real world driving.
Now getting back to the videos:
1st video
In this video, there is a lot of high revving and quick stabs of the throttle. This car could be on a loading dyno which simulates road conditions, but that wouldn't even be fully necessary. He could be testing tip-in throttle enrichment. He could be simulating high performance backroads driving where people tach up continuously and then boost suddenly. He could be checking boost transient response and adjusting the boost controller. There is nothing in the first video that indicates the tuner does or does not know what he's doing. It is inconclusive. Just because the video doesn't look like every other "dyno tuning" video you see on the internet does not mean the tuner is incompetent--or competent. You can't really see what he's doing on the computer and you can't get inside his head.
2nd video
There is a lot of free revving here in the beginning it seems. He might be an idiot... or he might be tuning the three major tables which affect fuel delivery during quick throttle movements (aka Tip-in tuning). The tables are
1. Accelerate Injector (max pulsewidth added during tip in vs rpm as well as a decay function)
2. Inj vs Accel TPS 1 (scales the max pulsewidth applied from the Accelerate injector table based on the rate of change of full range TPS voltage)
3. INJ vs TPS (adds additional fueling based on just the full range TPS voltage, useful for lean stumbles from very small throttle movements)
It is a lot safer and easier to tune tip-in on a dyno than on the street. Still, he might just be an idiot screwing around with somebody's car. Inconclusive.
3rd video
All I can do is interpret what I am hearing. The engine could have a surge of some sort that he is trying to fix. Or he could be working on tip-in again to work out stumbles that occur when you are free revving and then make small throttle movements. These kind throttle response issues are common on any car with a standalone. He could be actually trying to work through them and make the car drive smoother.
Or he could be an idiot who is just ******* around. Inconclusive.
Just to sum things up, if the engine blew from tuning it was probably because it had too much timing (especially trailing timing) or it leaned out because the tune could not adapt to changing ambient conditions. It didn't blow up because he revved the car on the dyno in addition to WOT pulls. The type of driving in these videos doesn't mean he's incompetent but it doesn't mean he's a genius either. We have no idea what he was doing on the laptop (we don't have the whole story). He may still be an idiot but there are perfectly legitimate reasons to drive like that when tuning, believe it or not.
09-20-09, 02:44 AM
#19
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I called pineapple, they recommended I go to Forged Performance to get mine tuned. I didn't get a really good tune, but they tuned it extra rich, so at least they went on the safe side. It cost a little over $300. I'd either give them a call, or start learning yourself. I'm trying to learn all I can right now so I can retune mine to run a little leaner.
My damaged turbo will arrive at A-spec Tuesday, and I should hear back from Pineapple next week. Let's hope there will be a happy ending.
As a side note: all the fabrication and installation was done by Pineapple. I paid to have the car tune ready, yet when I pulled the broken engine out I realized I didn't have EGTs. For as little as I know, I am aware that EGTs are important when tuning. The harness also had connections that were broken (supposedly was looked over and modified for single by Pineapple).
09-20-09, 03:09 AM
#20
dorito powered
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 2,839
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The car does not coming with EGT probes from the factory, if you did not ask to have them put in, they would not put them in. The factory gave us a shitty narrow band O2 sensor. Dual EGTs is nice, but not necessary.
at least that's my 2 cents.
at least that's my 2 cents.
09-20-09, 03:34 AM
#21
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: fort worth, tx, usa
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can tell from watching the video that he was mainly working on part throttle, tip-in, injector staging and cruising AFR. The 1st video sounds like he was working on tip-in and injector staging. The 2nd video sounds like he was in 5th gear adjusting crusing AFR. Not exactly sure what he was doing on the 3rd video but probably similar to video 1. Another thing I notice was that I didn't see or hear a bov in your car. I see alot of movement on your air filter when letting off due to surging. That could explain why your turbo smokes and possibly broke your thrust bearing and tear up your compressor and turbine wheel. It is also possible that metal pieces from your turbo went through the engine and damage your engine.
There's noway to conclude from watching those video that it was your tuner's fault. if that was all he did in the 5+ hrs than it sounds like he never did any WOT pulls.
on a side note, the dyno is a dynojet 248c. It's an inertia base dyno. from listening to how the rpm goes up, I don't think there was an eddy current load on it. I have used the eddy current base dynojet and it would only hold at specific rpm for part throttle (approx good for 150rwhp). anything more would exceed the capacity of the eddy current
just my .02
There's noway to conclude from watching those video that it was your tuner's fault. if that was all he did in the 5+ hrs than it sounds like he never did any WOT pulls.
on a side note, the dyno is a dynojet 248c. It's an inertia base dyno. from listening to how the rpm goes up, I don't think there was an eddy current load on it. I have used the eddy current base dynojet and it would only hold at specific rpm for part throttle (approx good for 150rwhp). anything more would exceed the capacity of the eddy current
just my .02
Last edited by pluto; 09-20-09 at 03:44 AM.
09-20-09, 03:41 AM
#22
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
Video #1 -
(2:30) Question: "Doesn't that looks like oil's pumping out again, or is it just clearing out?"
(2:35) Shop Response: "All that is, is the uh... crank case <muffled>.. with the turbo, that's all that is."
[edit]I'm sorry, but if I ask somebody who's supposed to be knowledgeable on a subject a question, and they don't know the answer, the LAST thing I want is for them to make up some bullshit answer!
Oh, and I probably paid around $1,000 for a total of at least three tuning sessions, combined, while I was in England. I was having my mapping (as they call it there) done by Max at Re:worx. Max is one of the most, if not the most, respected tuners on the island. This cost is taking the exchange rate ($2.00-$1.50 to 1 GBP) into consideration...[/edit]
Sounds like your mechanics/dyno techs didn't know their dicks from a door-**** in this case...
(2:30) Question: "Doesn't that looks like oil's pumping out again, or is it just clearing out?"
(2:35) Shop Response: "All that is, is the uh... crank case <muffled>.. with the turbo, that's all that is."
[edit]I'm sorry, but if I ask somebody who's supposed to be knowledgeable on a subject a question, and they don't know the answer, the LAST thing I want is for them to make up some bullshit answer!
Oh, and I probably paid around $1,000 for a total of at least three tuning sessions, combined, while I was in England. I was having my mapping (as they call it there) done by Max at Re:worx. Max is one of the most, if not the most, respected tuners on the island. This cost is taking the exchange rate ($2.00-$1.50 to 1 GBP) into consideration...[/edit]
Sounds like your mechanics/dyno techs didn't know their dicks from a door-**** in this case...
Last edited by fendamonky; 09-20-09 at 03:52 AM. Reason: see [edit] through [/edit]
09-20-09, 08:05 AM
#23
"Elusive, not deceptive!”
I can tell from watching the video that he was mainly working on part throttle, tip-in, injector staging and cruising AFR. The 1st video sounds like he was working on tip-in and injector staging. The 2nd video sounds like he was in 5th gear adjusting crusing AFR. Not exactly sure what he was doing on the 3rd video but probably similar to video 1. Another thing I notice was that I didn't see or hear a bov in your car. I see alot of movement on your air filter when letting off due to surging. That could explain why your turbo smokes and possibly broke your thrust bearing and tear up your compressor and turbine wheel. It is also possible that metal pieces from your turbo went through the engine and damage your engine.
just my .02
just my .02
Listen to Pluto (Steve Kan) he has vast experience.
Sounds like compressor stall to me also. Do you have a BOV?
Barry
