uumm... is non-sequential SUPPOSED to be this fast??
11-26-11, 12:37 PM
#1
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uumm... is non-sequential SUPPOSED to be this fast??
ok so, heres the backround.
the car had perfetly working sequentials and was bone stock untill earily this summer when it cought fire. after the fire repair, i did add a few bolts ons, including, large smic, apexi intakes, jdm downpipe, greddy intake elbow, and fresh injectors. (stock size) well i couldnt get the sequentials to work right so i went with the poor mans non-seq. I should mention here that my car is an auto. i was afraid of non seq because of the turbo lag. well the lag is there but, my other car is a big single turbo supra.. so.. i'm used to ungodly turbo lag.
ANYWAY.... now that everythings working, when i hit full boost (11psi) in first gear, i loose traction and my rear end walks out. this is with 275/45/18 toyo proxes tires that are NOT worn out..
i've never owned an auto that would fry tires just on power alone ( no powerbrake no nutral drop, just... mash gas.)
im not complaining but, but holy crap!!
the car had perfetly working sequentials and was bone stock untill earily this summer when it cought fire. after the fire repair, i did add a few bolts ons, including, large smic, apexi intakes, jdm downpipe, greddy intake elbow, and fresh injectors. (stock size) well i couldnt get the sequentials to work right so i went with the poor mans non-seq. I should mention here that my car is an auto. i was afraid of non seq because of the turbo lag. well the lag is there but, my other car is a big single turbo supra.. so.. i'm used to ungodly turbo lag.
ANYWAY.... now that everythings working, when i hit full boost (11psi) in first gear, i loose traction and my rear end walks out. this is with 275/45/18 toyo proxes tires that are NOT worn out..
i've never owned an auto that would fry tires just on power alone ( no powerbrake no nutral drop, just... mash gas.)
im not complaining but, but holy crap!!
11-26-11, 01:38 PM
#3
Do you have a boost gauge installed? It's possible you're seeing more boost than before, which will definitely result in more power.
Be careful if you're running the stock ECU, the RX-7 ECU doesn't handle airflow modifications nearly as well as a Supra ECU. Not everyone agrees on the exact limit, but search around for the '3 mod rule' and you can find all sorts of discussion about it.
Be careful if you're running the stock ECU, the RX-7 ECU doesn't handle airflow modifications nearly as well as a Supra ECU. Not everyone agrees on the exact limit, but search around for the '3 mod rule' and you can find all sorts of discussion about it.
11-26-11, 04:20 PM
#5
I've never driven my fd I wouldn't know .. but I'm worried .. does it really lose traction ? also are the tires R1R's ? or all seasons ? I could break my tires loose in second gear on my miata , on toyo proxes , but real summer tires just laughed at me and said puhuh *grip*
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11-26-11, 05:09 PM
#8
non seq is the lazy mans way to fix the sequentials.
Otherwise, just go single turbo.
And your car is faster and more powerful mainly due to the bolt on mods.
In low boost applications, Non-seq will not yield more power than sequential. Plain and simple. (Unless you do the rich-man's version). The difference you are feeling is from your other bolt-ons. These engines respond very well to flow mods.
Otherwise, just go single turbo.
And your car is faster and more powerful mainly due to the bolt on mods.
In low boost applications, Non-seq will not yield more power than sequential. Plain and simple. (Unless you do the rich-man's version). The difference you are feeling is from your other bolt-ons. These engines respond very well to flow mods.
11-26-11, 05:58 PM
#9
I'm with my nemesis on this! once again my opinion may be useless as i've never driven an FD in good condition , But i did ride , and raced against a poorly tuned t04 single . and sure it was fast when it got in boost , but damn it felt sluggish before it finally spooled it ultimately led to my decision to buy my ... mess of a car.
11-26-11, 06:54 PM
#11
depends what the issue is with the twins, i certainly wouldn't spend $1k in labor, parts and diagnostic time to fix the sequentials for a little bit of extra lag. the twins do function well, but i find alot of people really dislike the transition point and prefer consistent boost out of the gate.
non sequentials spool peak at around 3500, sequentials at about 2900 and dip at the transition point.
i've had a few that weren't so simple fix wise that usually wound up non sequential but wasn't alot of complaining about the end result.
non sequentials spool peak at around 3500, sequentials at about 2900 and dip at the transition point.
i've had a few that weren't so simple fix wise that usually wound up non sequential but wasn't alot of complaining about the end result.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-26-11 at 06:56 PM.
11-26-11, 07:19 PM
#12
theorie,
I think that's well put, considering some of us have to worry about smog and visual inspections and don't have a garage to work in. So I have to deal with the stock twins at this point. 10-8-10 doesn't really describe it. Accelerating has always been more like
1) no boost, then
2) primary boost, then
3) transition power dip, then
4) secondary boost, then
5) runs out of breath at upper rpms
6) (optional) realizing the girl sitting in the passenger seat thinks you don't know how to drive smoothly
Driving a non-seq FD for the first time was a revelation.
Poorly put. Some of us have other financial and time obligations that make a properly put-together single conversion on our overpriced toys an irresponsible decision. It hardly has anything to do with laziness, that is, unless you are paying someone else to install a single for you.
I think that's well put, considering some of us have to worry about smog and visual inspections and don't have a garage to work in. So I have to deal with the stock twins at this point. 10-8-10 doesn't really describe it. Accelerating has always been more like
1) no boost, then
2) primary boost, then
3) transition power dip, then
4) secondary boost, then
5) runs out of breath at upper rpms
6) (optional) realizing the girl sitting in the passenger seat thinks you don't know how to drive smoothly
Driving a non-seq FD for the first time was a revelation.
Poorly put. Some of us have other financial and time obligations that make a properly put-together single conversion on our overpriced toys an irresponsible decision. It hardly has anything to do with laziness, that is, unless you are paying someone else to install a single for you.
11-26-11, 07:34 PM
#13
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I think that there is no point in keeping the twins if going non sequential. The most important thing with the sequential system is to know HOW it works. Once you have an understanding of how it works problems with the sequential system become much easier to solve.
I agree with monkman33, "non seq is the lazy mans way to fix the sequentials." but it really does not "fix' them it only simplifies the system.
I absolutely love my sequential turbos. I have had a problem with the turbo control solenoid sticking causing the turbos to stay non-sequential, and it is so much slower (spool up). I love the instant boost. I also enjoy the transition.
Karack, I think the reason people do not complain when they go non sequential is because you saved them money and headaches. But, IMHO part of what made this car so great is missing once one converts to non-sequential.
To the OP,
I believe you have some factors that are contributing to this "problem"
1. You added a few power-adders. As has been said before, these cars respond well to flow modifications.
2. Although you are in Arizona It is cooler around this time, the tires are colder and never get up to temp causing them to have a lower coefficient of friction with the pavement. Allowing for wheel spin.
Have you lowered your car and not had an alignment? Maybe you are not using all of the tire contact patch?
Do you have coilovers? What are the spring rates?
Tem120...... I am your Nemesis? HAHA!
John
I agree with monkman33, "non seq is the lazy mans way to fix the sequentials." but it really does not "fix' them it only simplifies the system.
I absolutely love my sequential turbos. I have had a problem with the turbo control solenoid sticking causing the turbos to stay non-sequential, and it is so much slower (spool up). I love the instant boost. I also enjoy the transition.
Karack, I think the reason people do not complain when they go non sequential is because you saved them money and headaches. But, IMHO part of what made this car so great is missing once one converts to non-sequential.
To the OP,
I believe you have some factors that are contributing to this "problem"
1. You added a few power-adders. As has been said before, these cars respond well to flow modifications.
2. Although you are in Arizona It is cooler around this time, the tires are colder and never get up to temp causing them to have a lower coefficient of friction with the pavement. Allowing for wheel spin.
Have you lowered your car and not had an alignment? Maybe you are not using all of the tire contact patch?
Do you have coilovers? What are the spring rates?
Tem120...... I am your Nemesis? HAHA!
John
11-26-11, 07:51 PM
#14
well, i wouldn't underestimate the complexity of the system until you have run into all the possible scenarios of what can and does go wrong with the system. it isn't super complex but it is still complex and it also relies on much more than just the basics of the system, even small boost leaks, missing pills, sticking solenoids, bad wiring, faulty sensor signals, everything plays a role in how they react.
most of the highest horsepower figures made on the twins have all been non sequentially modified, not that you can't come close while still maintaining the sequential system it surely hinders the peak performance level of them.
i honestly also do not like the seam where the secondary turbo comes online. yes it gives a much more stout kick in the pants but the non sequential comes on stronger once it does start to generate boost, rather than waiting for that transition point. using an EBC and overshooting the non sequentials still gives quite a nice slam in your seat.
not trying to sway anyone in one direction, i just find it works in either respect. i certainly wouldn't spend much time fixing it when you can simplify the whole engine by removing alot of the clutter and heat soaking materials. paying a shop to diagnose the system usually starts at about 2 hours and goes up from there, depending on if it is a simple fix like a boost leak(obviously less time than 2 hours) or more complex like a wiring issue or faulty solenoid on the rats nest.
most of the highest horsepower figures made on the twins have all been non sequentially modified, not that you can't come close while still maintaining the sequential system it surely hinders the peak performance level of them.
i honestly also do not like the seam where the secondary turbo comes online. yes it gives a much more stout kick in the pants but the non sequential comes on stronger once it does start to generate boost, rather than waiting for that transition point. using an EBC and overshooting the non sequentials still gives quite a nice slam in your seat.
not trying to sway anyone in one direction, i just find it works in either respect. i certainly wouldn't spend much time fixing it when you can simplify the whole engine by removing alot of the clutter and heat soaking materials. paying a shop to diagnose the system usually starts at about 2 hours and goes up from there, depending on if it is a simple fix like a boost leak(obviously less time than 2 hours) or more complex like a wiring issue or faulty solenoid on the rats nest.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-26-11 at 07:59 PM.
11-26-11, 08:01 PM
#15
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^ I know there are many ways the sequental system can malfunction and can have the same symptoms. I am merely stating that once you know how it works, not just a BASIC understanding, but really know how it works, the problems with the system are easier to solve.
As far as the higher horsepower on the non sequential system, that is obvious there is less restriction in the system, but that only occurs when the car is modified the "rich man's" way. A poor-mans non-sequential car will not make more power just because it is non-sequential. There are the same restrictions in the exhaust and intake as a sequential car. There maybe about a 500- 600RPM span where the non-sequential car makes more power between 3900-4500RPM. But a sequential car is already in front because of the instant boost.
Karack, I do agree that if someone has to pay a shop to fix the sequential system then it may make more sense to just elminate it. Having said that, If the car's wiring harness is messed up so bad that is it causing issues then it is time to change the harness, just patching or removing non-functioning components is not the right way to "fix" things. If the solenoids are not functioning properly then they should be changed. If someone spends a good 8 hours testing and replacing parts in the system, IMHO, the shop labor is not a big deal because if it is repaired correctly then it should not have problems for a while.
John
As far as the higher horsepower on the non sequential system, that is obvious there is less restriction in the system, but that only occurs when the car is modified the "rich man's" way. A poor-mans non-sequential car will not make more power just because it is non-sequential. There are the same restrictions in the exhaust and intake as a sequential car. There maybe about a 500- 600RPM span where the non-sequential car makes more power between 3900-4500RPM. But a sequential car is already in front because of the instant boost.
Karack, I do agree that if someone has to pay a shop to fix the sequential system then it may make more sense to just elminate it. Having said that, If the car's wiring harness is messed up so bad that is it causing issues then it is time to change the harness, just patching or removing non-functioning components is not the right way to "fix" things. If the solenoids are not functioning properly then they should be changed. If someone spends a good 8 hours testing and replacing parts in the system, IMHO, the shop labor is not a big deal because if it is repaired correctly then it should not have problems for a while.
John
11-26-11, 08:07 PM
#16
somewhat, i do feel that once both turbos come online it makes up for that gap where the primary turbo is working and then has to lag for an instant to let the secondary turbo come online.
that was all my main point was, i feel sequentials work better for lower speed transitions like autocrossing and perhaps some track driving, non sequentials border into the track territory and more into the drag racing for the budget racer. for integrity of the car, a 100% original car retains more value but obviously has to be functioning properly too.
that was all my main point was, i feel sequentials work better for lower speed transitions like autocrossing and perhaps some track driving, non sequentials border into the track territory and more into the drag racing for the budget racer. for integrity of the car, a 100% original car retains more value but obviously has to be functioning properly too.
11-26-11, 08:32 PM
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oh no doubt sequential is a beauitiful thing when it works right, here's why i went non-seq.
this year alone i have repaired 4 diffrent fd's to make the twins work properly. after the engine fire i had to replace EVERYTHING except the block with mostly used parts. when the sequence didnt work right, (after double, triple and quadruple checking that every single sensor, soleniod and vac, line was routed properly) the thought of taking it apart AGAIN (i had to dissasymble and reassymble the top end 5 times due to mistkes, leaky injectors, ect ect.) made me vomit in my mouth. so at that point it was kind of like... ya, ill be lazy. it makes sence to me that on the top end, the power would be the same, however when a seq. car makes 10psi before the transition, its only getting air flow from one turbo, when a non-seq car makes 10psi, its getting flow from 2. which means more volume and thus more power, of course after the 10-8-10 is done, they are the same.
thats my theory anyway, and yes, in answer to above question, i do have a boost gauge, holding 10.5 psi steady.
thanks dudes. i F'n love my car again.
this year alone i have repaired 4 diffrent fd's to make the twins work properly. after the engine fire i had to replace EVERYTHING except the block with mostly used parts. when the sequence didnt work right, (after double, triple and quadruple checking that every single sensor, soleniod and vac, line was routed properly) the thought of taking it apart AGAIN (i had to dissasymble and reassymble the top end 5 times due to mistkes, leaky injectors, ect ect.) made me vomit in my mouth. so at that point it was kind of like... ya, ill be lazy. it makes sence to me that on the top end, the power would be the same, however when a seq. car makes 10psi before the transition, its only getting air flow from one turbo, when a non-seq car makes 10psi, its getting flow from 2. which means more volume and thus more power, of course after the 10-8-10 is done, they are the same.
thats my theory anyway, and yes, in answer to above question, i do have a boost gauge, holding 10.5 psi steady.
thanks dudes. i F'n love my car again.
11-26-11, 08:43 PM
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I think that there is no point in keeping the twins if going non sequential. The most important thing with the sequential system is to know HOW it works. Once you have an understanding of how it works problems with the sequential system become much easier to solve.
I agree with monkman33, "non seq is the lazy mans way to fix the sequentials." but it really does not "fix' them it only simplifies the system.
I absolutely love my sequential turbos. I have had a problem with the turbo control solenoid sticking causing the turbos to stay non-sequential, and it is so much slower (spool up). I love the instant boost. I also enjoy the transition.
Karack, I think the reason people do not complain when they go non sequential is because you saved them money and headaches. But, IMHO part of what made this car so great is missing once one converts to non-sequential.
To the OP,
I believe you have some factors that are contributing to this "problem"
1. You added a few power-adders. As has been said before, these cars respond well to flow modifications.
2. Although you are in Arizona It is cooler around this time, the tires are colder and never get up to temp causing them to have a lower coefficient of friction with the pavement. Allowing for wheel spin.
Have you lowered your car and not had an alignment? Maybe you are not using all of the tire contact patch?
Do you have coilovers? What are the spring rates?
Tem120...... I am your Nemesis? HAHA!
John
I agree with monkman33, "non seq is the lazy mans way to fix the sequentials." but it really does not "fix' them it only simplifies the system.
I absolutely love my sequential turbos. I have had a problem with the turbo control solenoid sticking causing the turbos to stay non-sequential, and it is so much slower (spool up). I love the instant boost. I also enjoy the transition.
Karack, I think the reason people do not complain when they go non sequential is because you saved them money and headaches. But, IMHO part of what made this car so great is missing once one converts to non-sequential.
To the OP,
I believe you have some factors that are contributing to this "problem"
1. You added a few power-adders. As has been said before, these cars respond well to flow modifications.
2. Although you are in Arizona It is cooler around this time, the tires are colder and never get up to temp causing them to have a lower coefficient of friction with the pavement. Allowing for wheel spin.
Have you lowered your car and not had an alignment? Maybe you are not using all of the tire contact patch?
Do you have coilovers? What are the spring rates?
Tem120...... I am your Nemesis? HAHA!
John
as stated above, want and can are not always the same thing. givin the money i would go single without batting an eye but i just spent all of my 5speed swap money repairing the fire damage (1500 bucks and that was only because i had access to most parts for free, now im broke again *sigh*) im in new mexico btw which is quite a bit higher than az.
but yes, it is cold, could be cold tires, didnt think about that.
had full alignment done a months ago, no crazy camber, yes getting full contact patch (as evidanced by the even tire wear)
stock suspension other than sway bars and endlinks
oh, and i'm trying not to take offence at the implication that i went non-sequential because i dont know how to work on the twins. Its okay, we've never met. I assure you i have a full understanding of how the twins opperate, and im fully capable of making them work properly.
at this point, im too broke to diagnose further, im too exhausted from being under the hood for 6 months strait and frankly.. i dont wanna.
having done both, i can say they both have positives and negatives, the car is amazing either way.
Last edited by reverus; 11-26-11 at 08:47 PM.
11-26-11, 08:57 PM
#19
Wastegate John
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^ We all have our reasons. I love the sequential turbos that is why I keep them.
I can definitely understand not wanting to keep diving into the car trying to fix a problem. As long as you are happy then that is all that matters. And you are back to driving the car
, and apparently enjoying it very much.
I am glad you did not take offence to my posts, they are not meant to be.
I think the temps have a lot to do with the tires spinning. My car will spin third when it gets near freezing (40 degrees Fahrenheit) It does not spin second when it is above 60 degrees Fahrenheit. Only a 20 degree difference but it makes a world of difference for traction.
John
I can definitely understand not wanting to keep diving into the car trying to fix a problem. As long as you are happy then that is all that matters. And you are back to driving the car
, and apparently enjoying it very much.I am glad you did not take offence to my posts, they are not meant to be.
I think the temps have a lot to do with the tires spinning. My car will spin third when it gets near freezing (40 degrees Fahrenheit) It does not spin second when it is above 60 degrees Fahrenheit. Only a 20 degree difference but it makes a world of difference for traction.
John
11-26-11, 09:02 PM
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aaaah the joys of extreem performance summer tires eh?
whats really scary is hitting full boost in the supra when she had the drag radials on and it was near freezing, i walked it sideways on freeway with a throttle roll on in 3rd gear... craped myself, went home.. and ordered new tires haha
btw the supra dyno'd at 600hp. :P
whats really scary is hitting full boost in the supra when she had the drag radials on and it was near freezing, i walked it sideways on freeway with a throttle roll on in 3rd gear... craped myself, went home.. and ordered new tires haha
btw the supra dyno'd at 600hp. :P
11-26-11, 09:07 PM
#21
haha I thought that would get a laugh .
karak , if lets say it were someone that used the primary turbo alot , say auto-x mountain driving , track driving , would you really suggest going none sequential ?
is it alot less laggy then lets say a T04? ( I guess this isnt the real place for this ) but I've been in an FD with a T04 and it almost made me decide not to get an FD becausei it felt so piggishly slow. granted it was home brewed and the guy who built hte car didn't know half of what he was doing .
Point is .. havingthat instant torque and power is indispensable in alot of situations , even in daily driving when you aren't in the top of the RPM range all the time .
11-26-11, 09:08 PM
#22
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aaaah the joys of extreem performance summer tires eh?
whats really scary is hitting full boost in the supra when she had the drag radials on and it was near freezing, i walked it sideways on freeway with a throttle roll on in 3rd gear... craped myself, went home..changed my underwear and ordered new tires haha
btw the supra dyno'd at 600hp. :P
whats really scary is hitting full boost in the supra when she had the drag radials on and it was near freezing, i walked it sideways on freeway with a throttle roll on in 3rd gear... craped myself, went home..changed my underwear and ordered new tires haha
btw the supra dyno'd at 600hp. :P
Fixed
Tem120, Unfortunately everyone has a different opinion of what is laggy and what is tollerable. Perhaps the best thing for you to do is go to some meets and maybe get a ride in a few different cars with different setups. If your main concern is turbo lag then you should stay sequential.
John
11-26-11, 09:50 PM
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haha I thought that would get a laugh .
karak , if lets say it were someone that used the primary turbo alot , say auto-x mountain driving , track driving , would you really suggest going none sequential ?
is it alot less laggy then lets say a T04? ( I guess this isnt the real place for this ) but I've been in an FD with a T04 and it almost made me decide not to get an FD becausei it felt so piggishly slow. granted it was home brewed and the guy who built hte car didn't know half of what he was doing .
Point is .. havingthat instant torque and power is indispensable in alot of situations , even in daily driving when you aren't in the top of the RPM range all the time .
karak , if lets say it were someone that used the primary turbo alot , say auto-x mountain driving , track driving , would you really suggest going none sequential ?
is it alot less laggy then lets say a T04? ( I guess this isnt the real place for this ) but I've been in an FD with a T04 and it almost made me decide not to get an FD becausei it felt so piggishly slow. granted it was home brewed and the guy who built hte car didn't know half of what he was doing .
Point is .. havingthat instant torque and power is indispensable in alot of situations , even in daily driving when you aren't in the top of the RPM range all the time .