Trouble getting the car started after rebuild
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
You really need to get some starting fluid and use that instead of brake cleaner... I would not spray brakleen into my engine.
You can hear the injectors click by using a mechanic's stethoscope or using a really long screwdriver and putting it on the injector cap and the handle to your ear. You will probably have a hard time reaching the primaries on a stock emissions car.
Not sure what the thumb test is on a spark plug, but the best way to test spark is with the plug out of the engine and a ground attached to the threads. And for god sakes - don't put your hand on them my dude. PLUG STUDIO / NGK
Regardless, stick to one thing at a time... starting fluid. If it runs a little on starting fluid you know the problem is fuel. If it doesn't run, then move on to ignition.
You can hear the injectors click by using a mechanic's stethoscope or using a really long screwdriver and putting it on the injector cap and the handle to your ear. You will probably have a hard time reaching the primaries on a stock emissions car.
Not sure what the thumb test is on a spark plug, but the best way to test spark is with the plug out of the engine and a ground attached to the threads. And for god sakes - don't put your hand on them my dude. PLUG STUDIO / NGK
Regardless, stick to one thing at a time... starting fluid. If it runs a little on starting fluid you know the problem is fuel. If it doesn't run, then move on to ignition.
I'm damn confident there's something wrong with one of the sensors, somewhere...
Have you check for spark. You may also want to test the coils per the FSM. As for deflooding, did you pull the plugs and crank it several revolutions.
Are the plug wires new OEM. Are they secure on both the plugs and the coils
Are the NE and G CAS connectors in the correct location
I still wouldn't completely rule out a fuel problem
Are the plug wires new OEM. Are they secure on both the plugs and the coils
Are the NE and G CAS connectors in the correct location
I still wouldn't completely rule out a fuel problem
Full Member
Joined: Aug 2016
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From: London
Tow start.
If that doesn’t work pull the upper intake manifold and take the primary injector plugs off and put 12v to them.
They should click, you will hear it.
If they are stuck you could swap the secondary’s to primaries ( just to test if it starts) in a matter of minutes just by de-pinning them at the ecu connector and swapping them for the secondary’s.
The car will run rich but will run.
If that doesn’t work pull the upper intake manifold and take the primary injector plugs off and put 12v to them.
They should click, you will hear it.
If they are stuck you could swap the secondary’s to primaries ( just to test if it starts) in a matter of minutes just by de-pinning them at the ecu connector and swapping them for the secondary’s.
The car will run rich but will run.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 13
From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
Okay, I did my homeworks. Still no luck.
- Compression tested.
- Coil packs tested.
- Spark plug wires tested.
- New spark plugs 4 x BUR9EQP.
- New Genuine fuel pump Walbro 450 LPH installed and tested.
- New battery.
- Tow start tried at 15 mph - didn't work.
- NE and G CAS connectors at the correct location.
- Starting fluid tried - a few explosions for a few seconds, then nothing.
- 12V on each injector: success. They click.
- Pumped old gas out, pumped new gas in (without 2-stroke oil).
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
I did not watch the fuel pressure while cranking. Thumb test is awesome! Here's the deal. You ask someone to crank the engine for you and you put your thumb at the tip of each spark plug and pray for your life!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,425
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From: okinawa to tampa
goodness lol
alright well put the fuel pressure gauge on and watching fuel pressure while cranking. im still convinced you have a fuel problem because of that video you posted earlier its not supposed to be like that.
alright well put the fuel pressure gauge on and watching fuel pressure while cranking. im still convinced you have a fuel problem because of that video you posted earlier its not supposed to be like that.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
Fuel goes IN primary fuel rail, comes OUT of secondary fuel rail.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; Sep 12, 2019 at 06:24 PM.
Joined: Nov 2011
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From: okinawa to tampa
have you verified the injectors are actually firing? i remember in one of your old threads, the fuel like were backwards. if you pull the primary rail and put a rag under the injectors and crank it, the rag should get wet. even with your new fuel pressure, which is too high, it shouldnt dip off like that. it should prime and maintain pressure. do the fuel pressure check while cranking and also verify that the injectors are firing.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 13
From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
have you verified the injectors are actually firing? i remember in one of your old threads, the fuel like were backwards. if you pull the primary rail and put a rag under the injectors and crank it, the rag should get wet. even with your new fuel pressure, which is too high, it shouldnt dip off like that. it should prime and maintain pressure. do the fuel pressure check while cranking and also verify that the injectors are firing.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
OK I just unbolted secondary fuel rail. I put my thumb at each injector while cranking the engine... Secondaries are dry. There's nothing coming out of the injectors. I tried it 3 times, and the 3rd time, the car started (???). It reached 4,000 RPM, so I turned it off. One of the screws on the throttle body was all the way down. Now the car won't start, again...
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,425
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From: okinawa to tampa
its the primaries are the ones that will fire. the secondaries wont fire until high load. pull the primaries and do the test again. your fuel pressure looks good while cranking
Wow. You should at least disable ignition if you're cranking the car with the injectors out.
Also, there are safer ways to tell if your injectors are not firing. I would say you already ruled out a fuel problem with starter fluid, but you said you sprayed it in the "LIM holes" for some reason.
The spark plug thumb test is one of the most idiotic things I've heard in a while. Not only does it tell you nothing about spark quality, but it's painful to boot.
You want to test a plug for real you ground the threads and watch while someone cranks for a fat spark at the air gap.
Also, there are safer ways to tell if your injectors are not firing. I would say you already ruled out a fuel problem with starter fluid, but you said you sprayed it in the "LIM holes" for some reason.
The spark plug thumb test is one of the most idiotic things I've heard in a while. Not only does it tell you nothing about spark quality, but it's painful to boot.
You want to test a plug for real you ground the threads and watch while someone cranks for a fat spark at the air gap.
Last edited by alexdimen; Sep 13, 2019 at 07:50 AM.
The secondaries don't turn on until about 3500rpm. Only the primaries run until then.
Pull the primary rail with the injectors hook up & plugged in, disable the coils/spark, crank the engine and see if the primary injectors are spraying.
Just saw that you're in Trois-Rivieres. You have a good rotary shop an hour away. Take your car to Derwin Performance in Montreal.
Pull the primary rail with the injectors hook up & plugged in, disable the coils/spark, crank the engine and see if the primary injectors are spraying.
Just saw that you're in Trois-Rivieres. You have a good rotary shop an hour away. Take your car to Derwin Performance in Montreal.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
Wow. You should at least disable ignition if you're cranking the car with the injectors out.
Also, there are safer ways to tell if your injectors are not firing. I would say you already ruled out a fuel problem with starter fluid, but you said you sprayed it in the "LIM holes" for some reason.
The spark plug thumb test is one of the most idiotic things I've heard in a while. Not only does it tell you nothing about spark quality, but it's painful to boot.
You want to test a plug for real you ground the threads and watch while someone cranks for a fat spark at the air gap.
Also, there are safer ways to tell if your injectors are not firing. I would say you already ruled out a fuel problem with starter fluid, but you said you sprayed it in the "LIM holes" for some reason.
The spark plug thumb test is one of the most idiotic things I've heard in a while. Not only does it tell you nothing about spark quality, but it's painful to boot.
You want to test a plug for real you ground the threads and watch while someone cranks for a fat spark at the air gap.
I know them pretty well (I bought my Walbro fuel pump from them). I would like to fix it myself. I'm not a big fan of sending my car in garages. Nice guys though.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; Sep 13, 2019 at 11:08 AM.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 489
From: okinawa to tampa
so you have spark, your primaries are firing, none of your injectors are leaking, cranking fuel pressure is good, cas is plugged in correctly (white on top?), primary injector plugs arent reversed?, map sensor is plugged in and working?, the vacuum line for the map sensor is in the correct place?, all the coil packs have the correct plugs on them and the plug wires are going to the correct place?, ecu ground is grounded?, firewall ground is grounded?, the ground on the spark plug side of the motor is grounded?
which ecu are you using?
which ecu are you using?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 13
From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
so you have spark, your primaries are firing, none of your injectors are leaking, cranking fuel pressure is good, cas is plugged in correctly (white on top?), primary injector plugs arent reversed?, map sensor is plugged in and working?, the vacuum line for the map sensor is in the correct place?, all the coil packs have the correct plugs on them and the plug wires are going to the correct place?, ecu ground is grounded?, firewall ground is grounded?, the ground on the spark plug side of the motor is grounded?
which ecu are you using?
which ecu are you using?
- Spark.
- Primaries are firing.
- None of the injectors are leaking.
- Fuel pressure is good.
- CAS plugged in correctly.
- Primary injector plugs aren't reversed.
- Map sensor plugged in with vacuum line (was working before the rebuild, has NOT been tested).
- Coil packs tested, and have the correct wire connected. Spark plug wires in correct order.
- Using Power FC (with no Commander/no Datalogit).
- Grounds visually verified (attached 2 pictures):
The engine always gets some explosions at first but finally gets flooded. It's the same story everytime.
So I'm not sure which step is next. For now, I only want to pinpoint the problem.
- Send the Power FC to a specialist to make sure it works properly.
- Buy a Datalogit.
- Buy a Commander.
Last edited by MuRCieLaGo; Dec 14, 2019 at 04:32 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
Yep, +1 on commander. The sensor check screen is invaluable to see that all the inputs are correct.
The ground to the firewall isn't right BTW - that ground normally goes to one of the bolts that hold the upper intake manifold to the lower. There's another ground wire that goes from the rear engine hanger to the firewall. Also, there is another ground that bolts to the top of the rear rotor housing.
Dale
The ground to the firewall isn't right BTW - that ground normally goes to one of the bolts that hold the upper intake manifold to the lower. There's another ground wire that goes from the rear engine hanger to the firewall. Also, there is another ground that bolts to the top of the rear rotor housing.
Dale
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
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From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
Yep, +1 on commander. The sensor check screen is invaluable to see that all the inputs are correct.
The ground to the firewall isn't right BTW - that ground normally goes to one of the bolts that hold the upper intake manifold to the lower. There's another ground wire that goes from the rear engine hanger to the firewall. Also, there is another ground that bolts to the top of the rear rotor housing.
Dale
The ground to the firewall isn't right BTW - that ground normally goes to one of the bolts that hold the upper intake manifold to the lower. There's another ground wire that goes from the rear engine hanger to the firewall. Also, there is another ground that bolts to the top of the rear rotor housing.
Dale
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Posts: 98
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From: London
OK I just unbolted secondary fuel rail. I put my thumb at each injector while cranking the engine... Secondaries are dry. There's nothing coming out of the injectors. I tried it 3 times, and the 3rd time, the car started (???). It reached 4,000 RPM, so I turned it off. One of the screws on the throttle body was all the way down. Now the car won't start, again...
All you have done there is added air.
Are you trying to start it with no throttle?
Do you have idle air valve connected?
Do you have an air filter connected?
Go back to factory settings on the throttle body screws.
Take the intercooler to throttle body pipe off and try again.
Silly questions but you said it started with an air leak.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 13
From: Trois-Rivieres (QC)
So you got it to run when the secondry injectors were out?
All you have done there is added air.
Are you trying to start it with no throttle?
Do you have idle air valve connected?
Do you have an air filter connected?
Go back to factory settings on the throttle body screws.
Take the intercooler to throttle body pipe off and try again.
Silly questions but you said it started with an air leak.
All you have done there is added air.
Are you trying to start it with no throttle?
Do you have idle air valve connected?
Do you have an air filter connected?
Go back to factory settings on the throttle body screws.
Take the intercooler to throttle body pipe off and try again.
Silly questions but you said it started with an air leak.
Definitely, I've got to double check the grounds! It seems like I've got only 1 ground correctly connected at the moment (the one near the coil packs). I wonder if it could be related to my problems, and could also be the cause of the "pulsing power" issue!
Definitely check/fix your grounds.
Verify map is working using commander.
I don't see where you have verified with your eyes that you have spark. You should make a video of your spark plugs firing out of the engine. Ground the body.
Plugs can foul and send voltage down the ceramic insulator instead of across the air gap in the combustion chamber. They will still trigger a timing light if they foul like this. It has happened to me before. Engine was impossible to start and ran like **** when it finally did.
Verify map is working using commander.
I don't see where you have verified with your eyes that you have spark. You should make a video of your spark plugs firing out of the engine. Ground the body.
Plugs can foul and send voltage down the ceramic insulator instead of across the air gap in the combustion chamber. They will still trigger a timing light if they foul like this. It has happened to me before. Engine was impossible to start and ran like **** when it finally did.