stevemack

I got my car back from a rebuild with 3mm Hurley Apex Seals and a Street port. Everything was looking good, vacuum was at 11 in. hg. and over the next 100 miles it had even grown to 12.5-13 in. hg. I was told that with a street port 14 in. hg. would be expected so my engine seemed to be breaking in nicely. After a day I started to hear this clanking noise which I thought was coming from the alternator but when I drove it back to Tri-Point it magiaclly stopped but the idle was now stuck at 1500rpm. Mark looked at it and adjusted the idle. He said evrything seemed OK. I drove off and while on the way down Topanga Cyn. the noise started again and this time it was louder. I turned around to drive back to Tri-Point but then all of a sudden the noise stopped but the charge and ABS lights came on and the temperature started to rise. I pulled over and shut her down. I checked the fans and both were running at full speed( just had 2 new 4 blade radiator fans installed which seemed to move more air as well as an IC Fan welded to front of the intercooler). I called Mark and he told me it might be an electrical problem and to let her cool off before trying to drive her back in to the shop. I eventually made it up to the top of th Cyn. and coasted all the way down with the engine off becuase it had started to overheat again with the engine just idling and no load on her. I called up Mark and told him what was going on and he told me to park her and that he'd call a tow truck. He sent over a tech and he looked at the car and told me that the water pump pulley had failed and snapped the Alternator and Water pump belt. He was the one who had installed the engine and he told me that they might have forgotten to tighten the belt or the water pump pulley bolts during the install. He also said that he had heard when I brought the car in earlier and that only Mark looked at it. He said that if Mark had asked him to look at it he might have caught the loose belt and just tightened up right there saving me the heartache of it overheating. The tech told me that they would repair it and test the intake to see if there was coolant vapors in it and also perform a coolant system pressure test. If it failed they would rebuild the engine since the O ring or other water seals could have gone bad but he doubted this as the engine only had 150 miles on it and that water seals and O ring would have been able to handle the heat since they were so new. I got the car back the next day and Mark said everything was fine. Pressure test and intake test came out OK. They just repalced the belt and said Iwas ready to go. I started driving her and saw that the vacuum was more solid at 14 in. hg. which seemed to signal that everything was OK. After a few days I started to notice that at around 3000rpm the car would backfire, stall a little and buck a bit. I continued driving it with no boost and not over 4000rpm. when i got close to 500 miles the car continued to do this 3000rpm thing. I even noticed a small oil leak from the passenger side area near the back of the engine. I searched this phenomena and found out from Damian's thread that it might be the TPS but Mark said that the AEM EMS would regulate that and it was probably something else. I continued to drive her easy but 1 week and a half after getting her back (I had waited 2 months for the rebuild because they were focusing on their track cars) I was at a stop sign and when I tried to take off it bogged down, started to sputter and died on me. I tried to start her up but all I got was white smoke out of the exhaust when she turned over. I tried to start her up so many times that my D-Mask Kenwood CD head unit got stuck in the middle of closing and now I have to repair that mechanism as well proving that when things go wrong they only seem to get worse sometimes. I had her towed to Tri-point the next morning and when I got there Mark fired her right up along with some white smoke out of the exhaust and some backfiring. He started looking at her and now the fun really starts. Mark tells me that everything checked out and he thought the car was was fine until he took her for an extended test drive and he barely made it back to the shop. It was stumbling, bucking and even died on him a few times. Mark said they changed out the coils, spark plugs, injectors, alternator and even put in a new program for the AEM EMS all to no avail. He says the car starts fine when cold but after it warms up the symptoms start to appear. He even put in a stock ecu but that didn't change anything. I got a new wire harness put in about a year ago so he says it can't be that but now they've had my car for 2 weeks and still don't know what's wrong with it even as of this morning when I callled them up for a status. Hopefully someone may be able to shed some light on this situation but it definitely looks grim.

Does anyone feel it could be bad water seals or O ring failure? Mark never told me if there was any fouling of the spark plugs when he changed them.

Sorrry about the long post but I am at my wits end and I love this car and don't want to sell her. It pains me greatly to see her laid up like this.

mad_7tist

your car is at a reputable shop that you have paid alot of money to and they have spent alot of time on. you both want it right. everyone on here will just be guessing. give them some time. on a side note why the 2 550cc injectors with 12psi boost?

stevemack

Mark said that by adding the 2 additional injectors it would lessen the load on the 2 primary and 2 seconday injectors. He wanted to keep all the injectors running at no more that 60% duty from what I understood and still allow them to deliver large amounts of fuel. I was going to up the boost to about 15 psi. but now that I'm on my 4th engine rebuild with them I want to keep it lower (10 -12 psi.) and increase reliability. I can't keep spending $3000 for a rebuild any longer and for 2 of the rebuilds I spent closer to $4500 becuase of 2mm Ianetti Ceramic Apex Seals. This car is definitely sucking me dry.

Fumanchu

I am not to sure what a solution to your problem is. I just wanted to reasure you that Mark and Tri-Point are very good people and will take care of you. Probably one of the best and only shops in the community that have no complaints about them.

nopistons94

paragraphs PLEASE

stevemack

Thanks Fumanchu. I trust them with my baby too. That's why I've continued to take my car there even after their 3 previous rebuilds have gone up in smoke. They definitely are expensive though and I'm sure they will continue to have my business.

stevemack

Sorry about that. I was trying to get it done quick so I wouldn't get caught writing it while I'm supposed to be working.

Kento

Agreed. Yes, it's been a while, but be patient and give them a bit more time to figure the problem out.

coolvette

Sorry to hear about your car.Why have you already had 3 rebuilds?Do you drag the car a lot?Something sounds kinda weird to me.

Snook

iTrader: (12)

I just want to barf after reading your post

you obviously know nothing about the mechanical aspect of your car and they have ripped you a new one. Glancing at your mods it looks like you are on the stock twins. How can you blow so many engines with those basic bolt on mods. It's none of my business but if you were to give me their phone number I'd call and chew them out but the damage is done already. To me it this time it sounds like a problem with the aem computer. This is why shops test drive RX-7s after an overhaul. You wouldn't have had these small issues that are very inconvenient and expensive. Are they even covering the tow bills? Do their engines come with any warranty? What was their explanation for all of the other blown engines? The rotary engine just can't take all of those mods and boost or what?? Instead of adding 2 550 injectors you could have upgraded your fuel system properly. That was done in the early 90s and was quite effective and cheap but why not simplify things and upgrade the weak link instead of rigging it.

stevemack

Well the first rebuild was from O ring failure and I decided(on their reccomendation) to upgrade to 2mm Ianetti Ceramic Apex Seals. Back then I had the 2 550cc inj. put in(also on their reccomendation) and an EFI EMS( purple piggy back) with the boost set at three levels (8, 10 and 12 psi.) all connected to a 3 setting dial installed in the glove box. Just turn the dial to the desired setting and you had that amount of boost and supposedly it was tuned for each boost level.

After about 3000 miles of normal driving I was on the freeway at 125mph racing a C5 Corvette and C4 Porsche (walking away from both of them easily) when I noticed a sudden loss of boost. Detonated 2 front apex seals which in turn went out the exhaust ports and ate up my turbos. I attributed this to poor tuning.

I decided to give the 2mm Ianetti's another try and obtained a set of stock twins to replace my other set. After about 4000 miles I was driving at about 25mph in second gear when I lost boost again. Detonated 1 rear apex seal but this time I was lucky enough not to destroy the turbos.

I went with 3mm Mazda seals this time and dumped the EFI EMS and opted for the AEM EMS. They lasted me about a year with about 6000 miles before a front corner seal blew. Again i think it was poor tuning since I hadn't gotten a chance to put it on the dyno because Tri-point moved locations and hasn't reinstalled their dyno yet. It wasn't shaking as violently as the other times but Mark reccomended a rebuild.

This time we went with the 3mm Hurley apex seals which have beefier corner seals with springs. Everything was going good for about 100 miles and now I'm here. I have never dragged or taken the car to the track but somehow their engines keep having to be rebuilt.

stevemack

Believe me, I have been sick to my stomach as well with as many problems as this car has caused me.

Yes, I'm actually still on stock twins. They have covered the tow bills and even got me a rental car after the water pump and alternator belt snapped. Unfortunately they don't offer me a warranty because they consider my set up as a racing application. They are working on the car right now on their own time and hopefully they will find out the problem soon.

As for the fuel system they have upgraded the fuel lines and the fuel pump so it also leads me to believe that it's a programming issue but Mark's partner, Craig, had the same set up on his RX-7 before he sold it( including the 2 extra 550cc inj.) and that's why they decided to load his program into my AEM EMS. Mark said that Craig had put in numerous hours on the Dyno with his car and always drove around with a laptop connected to the AEM EMS to monitor what was going on at all times and to record the data from various loads and how the car reacted to them.

antcee

Stevemack,
You may want to carefully check all of the pins going to the AEM ECU for corrosion. I had a similar situation, and it turned out that water was leaking from the A/C system onto the ECU. It was difficult to see, but only a couple of gold colored pins were white. Also, check the inside of the plug on the female side.
The problem was intermittent, like yours. Ran great cold, then when it got warm, it sputtered and shut down.
Hope this helps,
Tony

stevemack

Thanks a lot Tony. I'll call up Tri-Point and make sure to tell them to check that if they haven't already. I'm hoping that they've done that already since they told me that they switched out my AEM EMS for another one and even tried a stock computer to pull the codes and see if they pointed to something.

tcb100

Damn, 3 rebuilds on stock turbos. Are you running a midpipe or a high flow cat?

And don't blame the PFS PMS unit. When the car is tuned right it works just fine.

stevemack

I don't think it was the PFS but probably the poor tuning instead. I used to have a high flow cat but opted for a resonated midpipe instead since I have the car registered in Texas but live in CA. That way I don't have to smog her. Luckily I haven't had any problems with boost creep since the AEM EMS was installed. I had the high flow cat while I had the PFS and when I got the AEM EMS installed they put on the resonated midpipe.

Fumanchu

It seems to me that the first 3 rebuilds had nothing to do with Tri-Point at all. Lots of people lost motors to the purple box. Even with the AEM on the third one it does no good if you don't have it tuned. Again not their fault.


This is how rumors get started.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

There seem to be a TON of variables here, and you mention them flippantly like they're nothing.


Has the car ever run correctly with the AEM?

What temperatures cause the car to run poorly?

Does the car run perfectly when cold (3000rpm stutter you mentioned) ?


Are you monitoring Air/Fuel ratios and knock sensor readings?

It's possible that the entire problem is due to the AEM computer not being tuned correctly. I keep hearing that they're difficult to tune well, and I'm sure your extra injectors aren't making things any easier.

-s-

Snook

iTrader: (12)

They are responsible man. Do you think they suggested for him to switch ecus and he refused? He doesn't know much about the car that's why he's paying top dollar to go to a pro and I expect since they built the engine they would check to see what's controlling it........especially after the 2nd or 3d time or are they simply retarded?

fcfdfan

..."everyone on here will just be guessing"...???

Not everyone is guessing here. I had horrible service on my FC with Tripoint and would never recommend them to anyone. The thousands of dollars I spent earning my "school of rotary life" courtesy of the University of Tripoint would make you sick. Where do I begin? Let's see, blown engine due to improper fuel management on a grossly outdated turbo/boost control upgrade, then stuck seals on the rebuild because they milled the rotors incorrectly for 3mm seals, ...or how about fire on the engine because of inproper installation of PD hardware...or how about my new OZ front wheel breaking off in the rain because of crystallized metal in extra length racing studs, or my O2 wire broken off and not repaired, air pump left loose, double billed for remove/replace of the U/LIM...that's only about a third of stories I could tell about the great service at Tripoint.

Add in that they take literally weeks to finish a job, and that you show up to find oil dripped all over your car because they rolled it into the shop at closing under the lift where some other leaky victim of their work sits, and not even to mention that their prices are completely absurd, and well, I'm not guessing about Tripoint. Only Tripoint is guessing. And like the thread title states: "Tripoint can't figure out what's wrong with my car."

I can give Schuler credit for being so gracious with the free tow truck service when your car has broken down after Tripoint has worked on it. Waytago.

By the way, I have receipts to back up everything I've said here, including copies of the memos I wrote to Schuler trying to unfuck my car after they got their hands on it.


..."I just want to reasure (reassure) you that Mark and Tri-Point are very good people and will take care of you."...

This is the predictable kind of suck up comment you'll hear about Tripoint from someone who want to believe they are not getting ***-reamed everytime they drop off their cherished car. For someone like Fumanchu to state there are "no complaints about them" only shows you that he lives in a bubble.

The fact is Tripoint lost their **** years ago and are much more interested in their piston engine race cars. Yes, Schuler puts on a good "Aw shucks" Mr. Humble schtick (especially when he can't figure out what's wrong with your car) and he may even be "good people" but only a fool mistakes that for being a competent shop manager, which he is not. When I was around there waiting for them to finish up I looked on as Schuler's other senior partner mouthed off at him in a high volume rant the mechanics snickered. That's really encouraging.

It's been a while, but be patient with them? Three rebuilds later, going on four, with untold thousands of $$$$ and time spent to/from Redondo Beach? Are you out of your mind? Tell Schuler he better make it right for free and you are calling the BAR -- Bureau of Automotice Repair. Then watch him do the "Aw Shucks" bit.

Yeah, I just want to barf too. I remember being a rotary noob, and I remember going to Tripoint because someone said they were good, and I remember how much money I wasted trusting Tripoint.

Finally, all I can say is this: read some of the suggestions in the thread. There are some smart people who are pointing out that you are running a questionable set up. I am under the impression that you don't know enough about how your car should be set up. You are trusting Tripoint for that. That is a deadly mistake, in my experience.

Fumanchu

Ok. Nice bold font too. Really got your point across.


The purple-motor-eater was blowing his rebuilds and it is Tri-Point's responsibility? If you hire them to rebuild a motor, that's all they are responsible to do; rebuild the motor and install it back to 100%. After that, they have no control over what EMS you are using. They can make suggestions, but that's it. It seems like finally they pushed him to try the AEM EMS after all the rebuilds in hopes that they can take the purple box out of the situation.


Then they install the AEM unit but can't tune it at that point. Is that their fault? Nope. Is it their fault that the car was ran hard on a generic fuel map? Nope.


Search "Tri-Point" in the West Section and you will come across plenty of threads going against what the character above stated. In any case, good luck with finding your problem.

scotty305

iTrader: (2)

I don't doubt that Tripoint knows a lot about chassis and suspension, but that doesn't always translate to knowing a lot about engines. And just because someone knows how to rebuild a motor well, doesn't necessarily mean they are good at ECU tuning. Did Tripoint offer to tune your ECU, or did they just install the parts you asked for?


I'm not an expert at tuning ECUs, or rotary engines, but I know this: your engine needs air, fuel, and spark at the proper times and ratios. A rotary engine has less room for tuning error than a piston engine, and a turbo rotary has even less room for error. You've got twin turbos, operating sequentially, with three sets of injectors: it doesn't get much more complicated than that. You need to have your ECU professionally tuned by someone who knows rotaries and ECU's very well.


I haven't personally heard of anyone who has had good luck or knowledge about tuning the AEM on an FD. Search DCrosby's posts, it seems like he's had a hell of a time with his.


Personally, I'd recommend that you either find someone who can tune the AEM well (AEM headquarters is in Torrance, if I'm not mistaken), or sell the AEM and get an Apex'i PFC and some upgraded injectors, and have it professionally tuned by someone with a good reputation.

Good luck,
-s-

tcb100

Damn right! The purple-motor-eater' does not blow rebuilds or motors generally - bad tuning does, and tuning is the responsibility of the shop doing the rebuilds. A shop rebuilds a motor and assumes the tuning paramenters for the previous engine are OK? What kind of shop is that?

I have run that PFS ECU since 1995. At 60,000 I lost the side seals, in my opinion, a manufacturing defect that we should have "Class Actioned" Mazda over unrelated to boost or tuning issues, but my car is quick, the purple box works well, & there is not a reason in the world why somebody running the stock twins "needs" anything else.

And they install the AEM and can't tune it? Then don't install it at all and certainly t send the customer out the door with an untuned engine that may self destruct. That seems like pretty shoddy work to me, as if working on the 4th rebuild isn't proof enough that somebody doesn't know what they are doing.

Scotty305, Ray Wilson at PFS has tuned the AEM successfully but he is on the other side of the country.

stevemack

Well with the AEM the car seemed to run properly and I was under the impression that it was tuned by Tri-point properly but a corner seal still went after 6000 miles.

Mark said that the problem seems to be time and temp. dependant with it running fine for a few minutes but when it gets up to normal operating temps. or just a bit higher with the 100 degree heat in the valley, it starts to have problems and eventually dies.

The car seems to run perfectly when it's cold or just as it reaches normal op. temp. but it then starts to buck and stumble usually at lower rpm's( ~3000 rpm) or under constant light load but the 3000 rpm hesitaion could just be a coincidence. Mark said my TPS was fine and all the grounds were checked when the engine was put back in. I asked Mark if I should get a hyper ground kit or upgrade the ground wires but he said that they were fine and shouldn't be causing a problem.

I have not been able to monitor A/F ratios or Knock sensor readings myself but I am in the process of getting a laptop to ride shotgun and display what the AEM is seeing while driving.

I still believe it's probably a tuning problem with the AEM because Mark hasn't actually had my car on a Dyno with the AEM. They still haven't hooked it up after they changed locations. He has only given me the same program his partner Craig had on his RX-7 before it was sold. Mark said Craig and I have the same setup icluding the 2 additional injectors so he thought that the program should work for me since Craig had put in so many hours on the Dyno before they moved to get his car set up properly. I also think Craig had a stock IC and I have a larger SMIC so Mark thought that my car would even be better with the same program.

stevemack

Well I guess I need to clear up a couple of things. When I bought my car and first took it in to Tri-Point they did a silicone vacuum hose job and upgraded the IC to a larger SMIC as well as added their Cold Air Intake box. They also put in a DP, Graddy exhaust and Efini Y-Pipe. Shortly after, the O ring failed and they recommended the 2mm Ianetti Ceramic Apex Seals and also suggested getting the 2 550cc injectors welded into the UIM and told me I would need the purple engine eater(PFS EFI) as stand alone fuel management. They were the ones who installed and tuned the PFS. After that is when I blew two sets of Cermaic Apex seals from what I believe to be bad tuning although Mark said they had put the car on the Dyno to tune the three different settings of boost ie. 8, 10 and 12 psi. Both rebuilds only lasted about 3000 - 4000 miles.