Tri-Point can't figure out what's wrong with my car
07-29-05, 10:33 AM
#26
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by scotty305
I don't doubt that Tripoint knows a lot about chassis and suspension, but that doesn't always translate to knowing a lot about engines. And just because someone knows how to rebuild a motor well, doesn't necessarily mean they are good at ECU tuning. Did Tripoint offer to tune your ECU, or did they just install the parts you asked for?
I'm not an expert at tuning ECUs, or rotary engines, but I know this: your engine needs air, fuel, and spark at the proper times and ratios. A rotary engine has less room for tuning error than a piston engine, and a turbo rotary has even less room for error. You've got twin turbos, operating sequentially, with three sets of injectors: it doesn't get much more complicated than that. You need to have your ECU professionally tuned by someone who knows rotaries and ECU's very well.
I haven't personally heard of anyone who has had good luck or knowledge about tuning the AEM on an FD. Search DCrosby's posts, it seems like he's had a hell of a time with his.
Personally, I'd recommend that you either find someone who can tune the AEM well (AEM headquarters is in Torrance, if I'm not mistaken), or sell the AEM and get an Apex'i PFC and some upgraded injectors, and have it professionally tuned by someone with a good reputation.
Good luck,
-s-
I'm not an expert at tuning ECUs, or rotary engines, but I know this: your engine needs air, fuel, and spark at the proper times and ratios. A rotary engine has less room for tuning error than a piston engine, and a turbo rotary has even less room for error. You've got twin turbos, operating sequentially, with three sets of injectors: it doesn't get much more complicated than that. You need to have your ECU professionally tuned by someone who knows rotaries and ECU's very well.
I haven't personally heard of anyone who has had good luck or knowledge about tuning the AEM on an FD. Search DCrosby's posts, it seems like he's had a hell of a time with his.
Personally, I'd recommend that you either find someone who can tune the AEM well (AEM headquarters is in Torrance, if I'm not mistaken), or sell the AEM and get an Apex'i PFC and some upgraded injectors, and have it professionally tuned by someone with a good reputation.
Good luck,
-s-
I've actually since talked to Jeff ( I think) at Rotary Power in Gardena and he also questioned why I had the 2 extra 550cc injectors put in. He said that that would supply enough fuel to run more than 600 HP. He aslo told me that he has a friend at AEM that could probably help with the tuning of the car including the 2 extra 550cc injectors.
07-29-05, 10:35 AM
#27
I would sue them honestly. I know you don't want to but you'll see after you sell your car and get out of it that it was the right thing to do. I'm upset at them not you but how could you let this go on for so long. The first one was o-ring thats fine. Then when their rebuild blew I would have had them fix that for free. Ok so you let that go but then the next one I don't understand how you weren't upset with them or anything. Is the guy 8 feet tall or what?
07-29-05, 10:36 AM
#28
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone used Rotary Power in Gardena and would they be a step up from Tri-Point? I am really considering taking my car over there after I get it back( and hopefully running properly) from Tri-Point so Jeff can take a look at it and maybe make some recommendations.
07-29-05, 10:44 AM
#29
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SurgeMonster
I would sue them honestly. I know you don't want to but you'll see after you sell your car and get out of it that it was the right thing to do. I'm upset at them not you but how could you let this go on for so long. The first one was o-ring thats fine. Then when their rebuild blew I would have had them fix that for free. Ok so you let that go but then the next one I don't understand how you weren't upset with them or anything. Is the guy 8 feet tall or what?
I wish I would have found RX7Club earlier. I actually didn't become a member until right after the 2nd set of 2mm Ianetti's blew. I also had taken my previous 1993 RX-7 R1 there and that one ran perfectly until I sold it for a 1999 C5 Corvette. I hated the larger C5 and went out, secondary to my love for the FD, and bought my 1994 RX-7 R2 in Texas around August 2002. That is where this sad story begins.
Last edited by stevemack; 07-29-05 at 10:49 AM.
07-29-05, 11:33 AM
#30
DinoDude
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Harpers Ferry, West Virginia
Posts: 1,170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is one person that I know of who has successfully run the PFS unit in stand-alone mode. You were a pioneer, unfortunately.
I suppose the injectors made the stand-alone mode necessary, but what was the point of the extra injectors anyway? With a larger SMIC, Cold Air Intake box, DP, Graddy exhaust and Efini Y-Pipe there is no obvious need for them.
I have 100,000 on my car, 40,000 on my rebuild (side seals got the first moto), I run 17-18 lbs of boost on 103 at the strip, beat hell out of the car.
It's tuning that keeps the motor in one piece. They really ought to cut you a great deal because tuning is their end of the bridge.
I suppose the injectors made the stand-alone mode necessary, but what was the point of the extra injectors anyway? With a larger SMIC, Cold Air Intake box, DP, Graddy exhaust and Efini Y-Pipe there is no obvious need for them.
I have 100,000 on my car, 40,000 on my rebuild (side seals got the first moto), I run 17-18 lbs of boost on 103 at the strip, beat hell out of the car.
It's tuning that keeps the motor in one piece. They really ought to cut you a great deal because tuning is their end of the bridge.
07-29-05, 11:38 AM
#31
Since you've neglected to mention exact temperatures (or instance, 200 F), I'm going to assume that you're not measuring them. You might want to install a water temperature gauge, because the factory one is not accurate at all.
I'm not sure if you know this already, but most ECU's, including the AEM, have a 'temperature-correction' feature. The Air/Fuel ratio and ignition timing can vary based on coolant temperatures. This could be causing the car to act weird when it's warm.
Again, you need to get your ECU tuned as soon as possible. Call AEM today and ask them who is their best rotary tuner in SoCal.
They have their own forums on their website, and I'd assume you could find someone on there who knows how to tune your ECU.
http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
There is an AEM subforum on rx7club, you should visit it if you haven't already. Change the settings on the bottom of the page to display threads from the 'previous year' , and hit the 'show threads' button.
https://www.rx7club.com/aem-ems-81/
Good luck,
-s-
I'm not sure if you know this already, but most ECU's, including the AEM, have a 'temperature-correction' feature. The Air/Fuel ratio and ignition timing can vary based on coolant temperatures. This could be causing the car to act weird when it's warm.
Again, you need to get your ECU tuned as soon as possible. Call AEM today and ask them who is their best rotary tuner in SoCal.
They have their own forums on their website, and I'd assume you could find someone on there who knows how to tune your ECU.
http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
There is an AEM subforum on rx7club, you should visit it if you haven't already. Change the settings on the bottom of the page to display threads from the 'previous year' , and hit the 'show threads' button.
https://www.rx7club.com/aem-ems-81/
Good luck,
-s-
07-29-05, 12:03 PM
#32
Originally Posted by stevemack
He says the car starts fine when cold but after it warms up the symptoms start to appear. He even put in a stock ecu but that didn't change anything.
07-29-05, 12:11 PM
#33
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PandazRx-7
Sounds like a problem I had a while back, car ran perfect up until the water temps reached a certain point, ended up being the water thermosensor located on the back of the thermostat housing. It was malfunctioning sending wrong signals to the ECU and dumping fuel... Of course, I'm assuming that the AEM does use the stock thermosensor to read temps and adjust fuel maps, especially if you had the same problem with the stock ECU.
Thanks for your advice. Mark had just put in the FC thermo switch upgrade on the car when it was being rebuilt this last time and I never had any problems with the FD thermo swith and the AEM before so that may be the problem. I would hope that they would have thought of checking this already but maybe they haven't. I'll call them today and see if they've checked this already.
07-29-05, 12:13 PM
#34
Originally Posted by stevemack
Thanks for your advice. Mark had just put in the FC thermo switch upgrade on the car when it was being rebuilt this last time and I never had any problems with the FD thermo swith and the AEM before so that may be the problem. I would hope that they would have thought of checking this already but maybe they haven't. I'll call them today and see if they've checked this already.
07-29-05, 12:43 PM
#36
Belligerent Security
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Pulling you over
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by stevemack
Well I guess I need to clear up a couple of things. When I bought my car and first took it in to Tri-Point they did a silicone vacuum hose job and upgraded the IC to a larger SMIC as well as added their Cold Air Intake box. They also put in a DP, Graddy exhaust and Efini Y-Pipe. Shortly after, the O ring failed and they recommended the 2mm Ianetti Ceramic Apex Seals and also suggested getting the 2 550cc injectors welded into the UIM and told me I would need the purple engine eater(PFS EFI) as stand alone fuel management. They were the ones who installed and tuned the PFS. After that is when I blew two sets of Cermaic Apex seals from what I believe to be bad tuning although Mark said they had put the car on the Dyno to tune the three different settings of boost ie. 8, 10 and 12 psi. Both rebuilds only lasted about 3000 - 4000 miles.
I would also recheck all of the grounds yourself. It never hurts.
07-29-05, 12:56 PM
#37
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by PandazRx-7
No not the thermoswitch, the thermoSENSOR. They are located right next to each other though.
So the mechanic explained the difference between the thermo switch and thermosensor and said they had already tested it and it seemed to be giving the AEM accurate readings. He said that they have narrowed it down to the injectors and possibly some wiring but that they have tried everything and replaced all the most common parts that would cause this problem and still can't find out what's wrong with it. He told me that they are going to have another mechanic start over on the troubleshooting to see if they might have missed something the first time they went through.
The mechanic said that if they leave it idling there all day in the sun there seems to be no problems. He said the problems start after putting a load on it for about five miles which then somehow causes the injectors to flood the engine and this causes it to die. He assuered me that it wasn't the AEM EMS or the program. Hopefully they'll find something the second time they troubleshoot it.
07-29-05, 01:12 PM
#38
Firstly, im sorry to hear about your bad experience.
Secondly, i think you should take these guys to court and sue them for all that they are worth. They have exhorted thousands of dollars from you due to their own blatant incompetence. They have given you an engine map that they have not even checked on the rollers and told you that it is safe. To have engines last less than 10k miles is absoloutely diabolical and can be attributed to nothing but incompetence from the people doing the work.
I really really really think you should be getting your car out of that shop, and repaired at another shop at tri points expense. Plus compensation. For them to say they wont warranty your build as it is a "racing application" is complete and utter ****, and simply a getout clause. As you yourself say, they ran the same setup on one of their cars. So why didnt their car blow up every five minutes like yours?
Sort this out dude, i really feel for you (And your wallet) but it seems that this shop is clutching at straws to try and fix your problem and getting off scott free when they **** it up.
Grow some ***** and start kicking and screaming, because they really are taking the ****.
Secondly, i think you should take these guys to court and sue them for all that they are worth. They have exhorted thousands of dollars from you due to their own blatant incompetence. They have given you an engine map that they have not even checked on the rollers and told you that it is safe. To have engines last less than 10k miles is absoloutely diabolical and can be attributed to nothing but incompetence from the people doing the work.
I really really really think you should be getting your car out of that shop, and repaired at another shop at tri points expense. Plus compensation. For them to say they wont warranty your build as it is a "racing application" is complete and utter ****, and simply a getout clause. As you yourself say, they ran the same setup on one of their cars. So why didnt their car blow up every five minutes like yours?
Sort this out dude, i really feel for you (And your wallet) but it seems that this shop is clutching at straws to try and fix your problem and getting off scott free when they **** it up.
Grow some ***** and start kicking and screaming, because they really are taking the ****.
07-29-05, 01:27 PM
#39
Lives on the Forum
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Lorenzo, California
Posts: 14,716
Likes: 0
Received 8 Likes
on
8 Posts
I've avoided commenting on this thread until now, but....
*Given your mods, a properly rebuilt engine should last for at least 70k miles. You are running a mildly modified car at pretty reasonable power levels.
*Tri-point is the shop that recommended certain engine management schemes to you -- THEY are responsible for making sure they are set up correctly! The additional injectors for your mods are just simply rediculous and overcomplicated.
*It would be very nice to hear Tri-point's side of this because they are coming off pretty badly here....THEY recommended an engine management setup, THEY are responsible for making sure it works safely -- I didn't say tuned optimally, but at least safely. If they did not want to accept responsibility for it, then they should not be putting together modified cars for people in the first place....
I won't comment on their engine rebuilding work because I'd rather not stick my head any further into this bear trap....
At this point, I think you need to come clear with them that what has occurred is not acceptable and that you will be going somewhere else for your future business. Ditch the crazy injector setup, get a PFC, have it Steve Kan tuned, and you should be good to go for several years....
*Given your mods, a properly rebuilt engine should last for at least 70k miles. You are running a mildly modified car at pretty reasonable power levels.
*Tri-point is the shop that recommended certain engine management schemes to you -- THEY are responsible for making sure they are set up correctly! The additional injectors for your mods are just simply rediculous and overcomplicated.
*It would be very nice to hear Tri-point's side of this because they are coming off pretty badly here....THEY recommended an engine management setup, THEY are responsible for making sure it works safely -- I didn't say tuned optimally, but at least safely. If they did not want to accept responsibility for it, then they should not be putting together modified cars for people in the first place....
I won't comment on their engine rebuilding work because I'd rather not stick my head any further into this bear trap....
At this point, I think you need to come clear with them that what has occurred is not acceptable and that you will be going somewhere else for your future business. Ditch the crazy injector setup, get a PFC, have it Steve Kan tuned, and you should be good to go for several years....
07-29-05, 02:29 PM
#40
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: GLENDALE, CA
Posts: 2,274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rynberg
I've avoided commenting on this thread until now, but....
*Given your mods, a properly rebuilt engine should last for at least 70k miles. You are running a mildly modified car at pretty reasonable power levels.
*Tri-point is the shop that recommended certain engine management schemes to you -- THEY are responsible for making sure they are set up correctly! The additional injectors for your mods are just simply rediculous and overcomplicated.
*It would be very nice to hear Tri-point's side of this because they are coming off pretty badly here....THEY recommended an engine management setup, THEY are responsible for making sure it works safely -- I didn't say tuned optimally, but at least safely. If they did not want to accept responsibility for it, then they should not be putting together modified cars for people in the first place....
I won't comment on their engine rebuilding work because I'd rather not stick my head any further into this bear trap....
At this point, I think you need to come clear with them that what has occurred is not acceptable and that you will be going somewhere else for your future business. Ditch the crazy injector setup, get a PFC, have it Steve Kan tuned, and you should be good to go for several years....
*Given your mods, a properly rebuilt engine should last for at least 70k miles. You are running a mildly modified car at pretty reasonable power levels.
*Tri-point is the shop that recommended certain engine management schemes to you -- THEY are responsible for making sure they are set up correctly! The additional injectors for your mods are just simply rediculous and overcomplicated.
*It would be very nice to hear Tri-point's side of this because they are coming off pretty badly here....THEY recommended an engine management setup, THEY are responsible for making sure it works safely -- I didn't say tuned optimally, but at least safely. If they did not want to accept responsibility for it, then they should not be putting together modified cars for people in the first place....
I won't comment on their engine rebuilding work because I'd rather not stick my head any further into this bear trap....
At this point, I think you need to come clear with them that what has occurred is not acceptable and that you will be going somewhere else for your future business. Ditch the crazy injector setup, get a PFC, have it Steve Kan tuned, and you should be good to go for several years....
couldnt have said it better myself... dont try to reinvent the wheel, the pfc is proven and it works. also, wtf is up with the additional injectors??? they are not needed and its another way for tri-point to stick the bill further up your ***!! and one more thing, Mark is a cheap *******....
07-29-05, 02:51 PM
#41
I'm sure there is more than one side to the story. How many miles were on the motor? Were you following their break-in recommendations? Do you have a boost gauge to make sure your motor wasn't seeing 12lbs of boost? When I first installed my boost gauge, I was surprised to see how quickly the twin-turbos spool.
-s-
-s-
07-29-05, 03:01 PM
#42
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by scotty305
I'm sure there is more than one side to the story. How many miles were on the motor? Were you following their break-in recommendations? Do you have a boost gauge to make sure your motor wasn't seeing 12lbs of boost? When I first installed my boost gauge, I was surprised to see how quickly the twin-turbos spool.
-s-
-s-
They installed a boost gauge when I first brought it in and with the PFS EFI I would occasionally see boost creep in the 12psi range when on the 10psi setting. After the AEM was installed I didn't have any more boost creep. Rock solid at 12psi. With the newest rebuild( 3mm Hurley Apex Seals) I only got to put 200 miles on it before it started to die on me. I never went above 4k rpm and no boost at all.
Last edited by stevemack; 07-29-05 at 03:16 PM.
07-29-05, 03:10 PM
#44
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
I can't believe you went back with HURLEY seals. 
At least put in some mazda 3mm, RA 3mm, or even atkins (which have held up well for me in the past, much better than the 2mm atkins).
At least put in some mazda 3mm, RA 3mm, or even atkins (which have held up well for me in the past, much better than the 2mm atkins).
07-29-05, 03:18 PM
#45
Hurleys apex seals are known to be weak and soft seals, and are bottom-of-the-barrel as far as performance goes. Their corner seals are said to be good, but I've heard rumors of them eating up irons due to too much spring force.
Meanwhile, mazda, RA, and atkins 3mm apex seals have all been proven to handle 500hp+, and their solid cornerseals with FD cornerseal springs are all that's necessary for a strong corner seal. This is the ideal build for a performance engine (without the expense of ceramics) IMO.
Meanwhile, mazda, RA, and atkins 3mm apex seals have all been proven to handle 500hp+, and their solid cornerseals with FD cornerseal springs are all that's necessary for a strong corner seal. This is the ideal build for a performance engine (without the expense of ceramics) IMO.
07-29-05, 03:30 PM
#46
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RotaryResurrection
Hurleys apex seals are known to be weak and soft seals, and are bottom-of-the-barrel as far as performance goes. Their corner seals are said to be good, but I've heard rumors of them eating up irons due to too much spring force.
Meanwhile, mazda, RA, and atkins 3mm apex seals have all been proven to handle 500hp+, and their solid cornerseals with FD cornerseal springs are all that's necessary for a strong corner seal. This is the ideal build for a performance engine (without the expense of ceramics) IMO.
Meanwhile, mazda, RA, and atkins 3mm apex seals have all been proven to handle 500hp+, and their solid cornerseals with FD cornerseal springs are all that's necessary for a strong corner seal. This is the ideal build for a performance engine (without the expense of ceramics) IMO.
07-29-05, 06:15 PM
#47
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Pedro, CA
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My FD was never the same after some work done by Tripoint a few
years ago.
It developed a mysterious overheating problem. This was
after the fan motor broke and was replaced after they worked on the car
for weeks.
I have never returned to Tripoint since they are expensive and slow.
After so many blowups as in your case, Tripoint should take full responsibility and fix the car.
Then I would take it somewhere else in the future. If you live in Redondo Beach, Rotary Power is much closer anyway.
years ago.
It developed a mysterious overheating problem. This was
after the fan motor broke and was replaced after they worked on the car
for weeks.
I have never returned to Tripoint since they are expensive and slow.
After so many blowups as in your case, Tripoint should take full responsibility and fix the car.
Then I would take it somewhere else in the future. If you live in Redondo Beach, Rotary Power is much closer anyway.
07-29-05, 07:01 PM
#48
Belligerent Security
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Pulling you over
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a totally 180 experience than the rest of these guys at Tri-Point. I was 100% pleased on the work they did on my car and the time they did it in. I will even be taking my rotary 510 project to them in the near future.
Sorry for jumping the gun on who's fault it is, but I have seen what this forum can do to a shop's reputation just off of one thread.
**edit** "trust1"... so with over 2 years of being on this forum and not posting one time, you decide this was the thread you would make your appearance and have such a strong opinion. If I had problems with a shop I would of made a thread years ago telling of the story.
Sorry for jumping the gun on who's fault it is, but I have seen what this forum can do to a shop's reputation just off of one thread.
**edit** "trust1"... so with over 2 years of being on this forum and not posting one time, you decide this was the thread you would make your appearance and have such a strong opinion. If I had problems with a shop I would of made a thread years ago telling of the story.
07-29-05, 08:16 PM
#49
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
Hurleys are garbage. You might as well have plywood apex seals in that motor......don't even think about detonating. Trust me, I have broken many hurleys in my time. Best of luck with them.......
07-29-05, 08:21 PM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: lemoore ca
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
little off topic. dude, just curious you said that u live in cali but got it registered in texas...how much did that cost u and did u have to have insurance in texas and cali..for this to work..? they watned to charge me 980 in taxes alone. and they said i had to get texas insurance. just curious. is all..i hope they figure out your probs man. sounds like a beautiful setup....hope they get it workin...
best of luck
best of luck