rynberg

What is your wheel/tire setup, ShawnK?

shawnk

I am running yokahama avs sports with 17" 275/40's in the rear.

I definitely would like to have more rubber back there but widebody is not in the budget....

My entire setup can be seen at:

www.3rdgenrx7.com/index2.htm

Shawn

fastcarfreak

So basically you use a traction control system because you cant drive your car well. Whats wrong with learning how to feather the gas a little or going out and buying a tire that sticks to the ground better? Although the race logic traction control makes a better driver out of someone thats not, it also has some serious defects. The number one reason not to put race logic traction control on your car is the fact that it cuts fuel. Why would anybody put a device on a rotary engined car that cuts fuel when its not supposed to be cut. You wont be so happy when your car is going into a turn on the track and the motor pops. Obviously you dont know enough about the rotary engine and should learn a little more.

BTW, im driving a single turboed rx7 that is puting over 400 to the wheels, and i will be the first person to say that traction is an issue when flooring the gas. You just need to learn how to drive better and not having a nanny along for the ride. What happens when you are driving a car that is as fast as your traction controlled 7? Chances are you are going to either spin through the gears and lose the race or you are going to go right into a concrete wall on a corner where you used too much throttle. The only thing traction control does is turn you into a worse driver then you already are, and potentially costs you so much more then a little tire spin.

Adam

shawnk

I thought I already addressed your "feather the throttle" solution. If you let off the gas you are going slower and there is no way you can adjust your foot faster than a traction control system.

I agree there are arguements of how to control the power (injector vs. sparkplug) but I havent heard of anyone blaming their traction control for their popped motor.

I am 100 percent sure that on equal horsepower FD's (assuming they have enough power to cause wheel spin) the one that has traction control will win in a stright line 0 to whatever race.

You go ahead and feather your head off - you cant adjust 1000 times a second PERIOD.

Why does everyone feel so strongly against traction control?? I havent heard one argument yet against it that made sense.

Shawn

shawnk

My first double post...This forum needs a Posting Control System to limit the post spin....

Shad Laws

Hello-

Lol!!!

I agree with you completely...

I think the problem is a matter of ego. People assume that they are kick *** drivers, and they are above "normal folk" and don't need help. TC is for weenies or something like that. Hell... even Schumacher himself is quoted as saying he likes it... and all the best racing teams use it.

But, hey, maybe some folks around here really are better than them. They should go teach them a lesson or two down at Ferrari :-).

Take care,
Shad... content in his status as a weenie poser driver :-)

rynberg

It has nothing to do with ego, at least for me. I certainly don't consider myself a kick *** driver. But when I'm on the track, why would I want some nanny correcting my mistakes for me? How am to learn how to be a better driver?

Schumacher is one the world's best and most experienced drivers. Having traction control isn't going to hinder the development of his driving skills. It does for the rest of us.

As far as ShawnK's point about a high hp single, well, that's the perils of getting a large single. Poor progressivity with a large jump in power once it spools. Traction control would probably be a benefit in that case.

shawnk

The way I can see your argument having any validity at all is that if you were to learn in a traction controlled car and then suddenly have to drive/compete in a non-traction controlled car.

As far as increasing your skills nothing subsitutes miles on the track getting familiar with your car and the concepts of racing. If it is used in formula1 then it gives you an advantage. Why not learn with it too?

Shawn

shawnk

Doh! It seems I suck at posting more than the freak say I suck at driving.

rynberg

Because it covers up your mistakes! How can you possibly learn how from your mistakes and how to correct things if the car is doing it for you?

fastcarfreak

So tell me, How do you address the issue that when you get into a car with out the traction control on it, that you are probably going to spin the race away or over throttle the gas into a wall.

Another issue with big single turbo rx7s is lag. When your fuel gets cut, your turbo slows down due to no exhaust going through it.

You make the argument that if we had equal cars and you had traction control that you would win. I say instead of spending over a grand for traction control i spend a few hundred dollars on a nice set of drag radials. Do you still feel you will win the race against me with your garbage tires and traction control?

Im not completely against traction control, i just feel that it takes away from your actually ability to drive. It makes you dependent of the system and when you go to drive another vehicle that doesnt have traction control, it will only make your performance in this vehicle garbage. I am completely against puting fuel cutting traction control on a rotary engined car, due to the nature of the rotary engine.

Personally i think you should try to learn how to drive the car to the best of your ability first, then if you feel you cant further your skill, then put the traction control on if you really need it.

Adam

bigmack000

my mom depends on ehr tc and the driver assit on her 350z. saved her a few times. i drove it and didnt' trun it off and i was liek wtf is this car trying to do. didn't like it at all took some fun away. with it off it still felt like it was doin something just not as dramatic.
joel

jmaak

but you dont have to replace the tc after a certain amount of miles

shawnk

Why not get the worst suspension setup and tires possible too. That would really make you have to learn to drive. Oh and go to a dirt track, by the time you are done with that you will be a hell of a driver. Of course when you get into my traction controlled rx7 on a asphalt track you wont have a clue of how to drive it (and this by the way is what I'd like to learn to do).



fastcarfreak

I dont care about learning to drive every car in the world on a track. I will be learning my car. And again I ask "Show me one person who has attributed their blown motor to traction control?"

You say learn your car and then if you need it but that doesnt make sense. Use some logic:

1. The car has more power than traction.

2. I could "learn" how to drive it by your "feather the throttle" suggestion where I may HOPE to adjust the throttle with 50 -75% accuracy (you are always going to be limited by human reflexes and muscle control no matter how much you practice) or I can get a system that will adjust 1000 times a second to my cars tires maximum ability.

3. I agree about the fuel cut concerns but the problem with our engine is if the car runs lean the mix will combust early causing detonation and blown seal. But if there is NO fuel then it cant detonate. Everytime you decel your car you injector duty goes to 0% but your engine doesnt blow. I didnt mention racelogic - you did. To be honest I havent decide on a racelogic system or not because of this issue but I am not sure I would rather have a system that controls the spark and have a bunch of fuel dumping into my downpipe.

4. If you acknowledge that one day "when I reach my full ability" I may need to get a traction control system then why not get it now and use my track miles to learn as the car is going to be in the end? It would be like learning to ski with a snowboard before changing to skis. Doesnt make sense.

Oh, and one more thing. Traction control can be turned off.

Oh, just thought of another. $1000 dollars means different things to different people. You may be applying your definition of $1000 to the question and figuring it is not worth the money which is why you are against it (and it may not be worth it or there may be other ways to spend $1000). But I am not applying any monetary constraints to what I WANT my car setup to be. I will scratch up the money from somewhere (because I dont have it now) if I think I need it.

Oh, yet another. I can assure you that I began this project with the goal of learning to drive this car to the best of my ability on a speedway. But I didnt get the car and run out to a track because it wasnt ready for that in its stock form in my opinion. I have the same goals as you- to learn to drive this car to its limits.

If I havent convinced you by now I am wasting my time, and just mark my name and car down in the back of your mind and feel free to think "there goes that dumbass shawnk around the track" everytime you see me (pass you :P).

You certainly havent convinced me with your arguements yet. Although you may have caused me to convince myself to get a traction control system.

Shawn

Warpaint_88

iTrader: (5)

Thought it would be fun to resurrect this thread. Anyone else try this system from Racelogic with any luck and like it for the track? Not drag strip.

Narukas

iTrader: (2)

Why not choose AEM EMS which has TC function?

Gurew

iTrader: (4)

bah on traction control...

Oscypek1007

iTrader: (1)

Real men don't need traction control... nuff said.

dvo

iTrader: (22)

get off your high horse people. Traction control is good if it can be completely turned off. Use it when you want it, turn it off when you don't. It's like insurance, you don't want to pay for it and hate it becauuse you hardly ever use it but you're sure glad you have it when it's needed

1ROTOR2NV

I took some time to read on the RaceLogic site specifically, and their traction control is gauranteed never to create a lean air/fuel mix, so eliminates the blown engine argument.

I am also a big F1 fan and the reason they have taken away certain driving assists such as traction control and ABS is to slow the cars down. Its a constant battle for F1 to keep the cars safe but at the same time to allow the engineers and developers of the sport to increase performance. If Shumacher has a car with ABS and TC , his lap time will be quicker,nobody can deny that, and that is the name of the game isn't it ?

I also checked into the difference between regular street car TC and sports car TC, even something like a 350 Z has a TC system designed around slowing the car down when slippage is detected, so as to not have people wrapping cars around a pole when the ABS sensors detect slippage. True highend performance cars have TC designed around eliminating slippage so as to increase performance. The sophistication of a TCsystem will be based on its ability to deliver the highest HP possible while eliminating wheel spin, most street car versions are not designed this way.

So in a nutshell RaceLogic traction control will make any level of driver have a faster lap if it is installed and setup properly.

And for what its worth the Ferrari Enzo, COrvette ZR1, Nissan GTR, and Koenigsegg have some of the fastest street car times of all time on the Nurburgring, and they all have very sophisticated TC systems. So if its in your budget I would buy one without hesitation.

GarageSpec

why would you want traction control? ...Ive always liked cars that dont have any driver assists. ABS is even a bit much for me, but I can live with it.

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

Exactly. Well said.

People say they can brake/recover better without ABS. That's complete BS! No one can react as fast as a computer can and pulse the brakes in the milliseconds at threshold. I hate all of this machismo surrounding electronic aid systems, the insinuation that somehow you are not a "real man" if you have one sitting in the background. The ABS system does not intrude until you **** up and exceed traction limits. Same with the racelogic TC... you turn the dial to the amount of slip you want, and it pulls fuel if you exceed that limit. That's it. It's there to save your *** if you screw up. Also if you are putting down big power, the TC system will let you put down as much power as your tires have traction for, and nothing less. That's a huge asset in my book if you have more power than traction.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

The problem with Racelogic and other aftermarket systems (AEM EMS) is that they are too primitive. If it doesn't have an electronic throttle it isn't even on the level of 20 year old OEM setups. My Q45 is more advanced than a RaceLogic system.

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

the same reason why they cut two holes in the engine bay and did not put cup holders in any rx7.

the same reason why our cars are still among the best handling production cars.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I need to step in here. ABS is only a hindrance at the track if you truly care about lap times. It comes on too soon with normal street tires and if your using R compounds, it comes on waaaay too soon and doesn't let you brake deep. I will argue this to the end of the earth. Call it my opinion or whatever but I will still say ABS will make you slower on our cares if your a serious track enthusiast who goes there for more then pleasure laps. This comes from my own experience. It may be helping you from hitting a wall, but its not helping you go faster. Keep in mind I'm talking about the OEM ABS on an FD.

I also own an RX-8 and have tracked it as well 2-3 times. I can say the ABS system on the RX-8 is much more advanced then on the FD and works better without noticing it too much. However, I still believe that you could could faster without it. However, since its my beater I'm not really going to remove the ABS from that.

It has also been proven that a good driver in an RX-8 with traction control off can go around a corner faster. This is the case for a vast majority of cars with traction control out there.

What I will agree with is a system engineered specifically for a race car with a given setup will work better then a system without it. But this is for dedicated race only systems, not your every day OEM stuff with your every day driver in mind. I'm sure something like the latest system in a Ferrari is pretty damn good but there are drivers out there who can outdrive it (albeit few).

On a side note, you can talk about how fast a system will react but there is something to be said about driver feel and anticipation which any system will just use the given pre-programmed parameters its getting from different sensors.

thewird