ItalynStylion

iTrader: (1)

That would indeed explain the quality difference....but the performance difference is what I'm curious about. What makes them ride and perform better with respect to their DESIGN?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

ItalynStylion That would indeed explain the quality difference....but the performance difference is what I'm curious about. What makes them ride and perform better with respect to their DESIGN?

Ohlins designs race suspension for a few chassis (you commission them to develop a suspension package for whatever car you want if you have $$$). They are well developed (that means they perform well).

Their motorsport knowledge, technology and application development data trickles down to the low cost DFV coilover line.

Among their innovations are temperature compensating valving for consistent performance and special high speed blow off valving for ultra digressive damping.

Tein has seen the advantages of the ultra digressive valving and has developed their "advanced M.S.V" for their Mono Sport to do the same.

Ohlins has more experience/development in this area. They are not in their first generation design.

ZDan

Precisely and consistently controlling fluid flow under changing thermal conditions to control damping is no easy thing, and requires a lot of design/engineering/test and precisely manufactured parts and pieces.
At the other end, you can have a damper that is simply a tube with a hole drilled in it. TERRIBLE damping (too high high-speed with too little low speed damping), but dirt simple and CHEEEEAP.

That said I don't know the specific differences between Tein Mono Sport and Ohlins DFV internal construction, but if the Teins are less expensive, there's probably a reason...
I paid $3k for the Ohlins before they knocked the price down. Now they're $2400 I think? At that price, a bargain.

The Ohlins are aluminum and were 2/3 the weight of the Tein SS coilovers they replaced on my car. So that's another factor...

Valkyrie

11kg isn't much for track coilovers. How fast does the car roll and spring back?

I have 11 kg coilovers but I think the dampers don't have nearly enough damping force. It rolls and unrolls a little too fast, even though it doesn't roll that much.

How are they with R-comps? A little too soft?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Valkyrie 11kg isn't much for track coilovers. How fast does the car roll and spring back?

They are "Road&Track", not track spec.

In my experience the Ohlins are on the low side of damping on their recommended settings.

It doesn't make the car feel floaty, but quick. It is quick to take on roll and come out of roll.

I got used to that.

When I went from my 35lb corner wheel and tire to my 50lb wheel and tire I had to crank up the damping (higher spring rates and damping would be the right way) to help keep the wheel out of the fender over bumps and it did have the (main) effect of stiffening the low speed damping as well. That made them act a bit more like the coilovers I am used to.

How are they with R-comps? A little too soft?

Yes, I found they were a good match for 225 extreme performance street tires.

You will probably want the usual 18K springs for the track and R-comps.

ItalynStylion

iTrader: (1)

Excellent response. That's kinda what I was looking for!

ZDan

Ditto BLUE TII. "Road & Track", 11kg springs are stiff for the street, soft for the track, but a pretty good compromise. I wanted to get the wheel rates closer to even (same rate all around = 25% stiffer rear wheel rates vs front), so I got 13 kg/mm Swifts for the front for a slightly more trackworthy setup. If I didn't do track days, I would have gone with softer rear springs instead of stiffer fronts.

I like the damping at the track. One thing I notice is if I'm learning a track, the car seems to move around a lot more, as if there's too little damping. But then when I learn the line and gain consistency, everything feels very stable and planted. If/when I get them revalved it will be to more track-oriented damping, but I find it to be quite good for track work on my spring rates.

I haven't run anything stickier than NT01s. On those, 13/11 makes a very good street/track setup, but for sure stiffer would be better at the track. I'm sure Hoosiers/R1S would want still stiffer springing.

ZumSpeedRX-7

iTrader: (12)

Thanks for the info on the springs

WGI and the new Club Motorsports track in New Hampshire are on my away game to do list for 2017. Mosport is a bit out of my reach unfortunately. Have you had the FD out this year?

I canceled my reg for Palmer next weekend unfortunately. Have you ran there yet? Ridiculously fun. Good luck! Hopefully I'll catch you next year

Congrats on the Period IV class win! Pretty awesome (and bold) competing and doing well on half the wheels

pjr

iTrader: (8)

Yeah. Front settings of 0 and 6 do wonders for handling too. The car is like "WTF." I still can't figure out how they got so screwed up.

All 8 CCW is doing well, especially given Detroit area roads are just a cut above those of Mosul. Given my 275/35-18 on the rear, I may click to 9 just for tricks for street use.

Valkyrie

It's not just the damping settings, you should always rebuild/replace dampers in left/right pairs.

Otherwise, your car will not stop properly. It may still turn OK, though.

pjr

iTrader: (8)

They are brand new.... Maybe 1000 miles...

cib24

Following on from your advice I adjusted the dampers this weekend ahead of a 130 mile round trip. I started with the front at 7 clicks CCW and the rear at 9 clicks CCW and the ride was definitely better than running nearly full soft, but it was still too stiff, particularly in the front. Stopped at a gas station to fill up and brought the front down to 8 clicks CCW which felt better although I may bring the front and rear down one more click each to see how it feels.

As to other comments on stiffness of the Ohlins 11kg springs and dampers on the track, here is a picture of how much roll my car experiences with the dampers at pretty much full stiff front and rear (about 1-2 clicks CCW if I remember correctly). I am running the stock front and rear anti-roll bars so do not have the extra stiffness benefit afforded from uprated Racing Beat bars or another aftermarket make.

lOOkatme

iTrader: (19)

I have the ohlins DFV and run 8/6 on the street. I like this set up a lot. I am running stock sway bars.

I am probably crazy but I run high speed stuff in the canyon roads. speeds are up to 140mph. I have the 99 spec brakes with bluestuff pads and glaze the pads at times if I push it hard. lots of 140mph to 60-70mph turns in a row.

The spring rate is great for me as higher speeds want softer rates and I run the shocks at 12/12 front and rear and not re-valved. To me its pretty close to where I like it. The car does sway but it gives me more grip, more compliance, and larger margin of error between grip and no grip.

I could see how someone might want more spring rate. The issue is higher spring rates flat out suck on bumpier roads at high speeds, the car wants to float and dance all around above 100mph. I stop at 140mph, but I could just keep going into 5th with the softer rates. The higher rates settle faster so if you aren't as good or smooth a driver higher rates are more comfortable. I also felt like I was driving the **** out of the 11/11 rates when they were on the car and the car felt pretty easy to toss around. The grip level was a lot lower than the softer rates. With softer rates the grip level is so high that I am afraid at times to push it to a level as high as they can give.

I would think higher rates on smooth tracks would be fine and probably have the added benefit of quicker settling, on bumpier surfaces I can't muster the ***** to go very fast as the car is throwing you around and bouncing/floating everywhere unsettling the car.

Not saying which is faster on track or not, but fatcat did a test on his car. With larger sway bars and 195 width R1R tires he mustered a 1.1G grip, he disconnected the sway bars and musters a 1.3G. softer grips more, but you have to find that balance between spring rate, bar rate and what works for the surfaces you are using the car on.

Valkyrie

That's an over-simplification. Sway bars don't just make the car stiffer, they also hinder suspension movement. They can also increase grip when the car rolls so much you get positive camber.

I think you get the most grip when the suspension is as soft as you can get it without losing grip due to camber.

Even if you use stiff springs you're generally going to end up with damping that is too stiff for comfort so that the car responds quickly enough.

ZDan

Great pic, beautiful car! Yeah, if you went with softer rear springs you might want to add stiffer front and rear sway bars to limit roll at the track. But 11/8 springs with stock sways should be more enjoyable and wife-tolerable on the street while still being fun at the track.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Check them again in two months

My Tein Racing Super Rs (LOVE THEM) are also possessed. I'm guessing many shocks shelf adjust as you drive and you just have to constantly reset them.

pjr

iTrader: (8)

Possessed and haunted coil-overs. Perfect for Halloween.

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

We're not an Ohlins dealer just because... they're some of THE BEST performing suspension out there for the fd ==, and under $5000 they ARE the best performing suspension. SakeBomb Garage has sold hundreds of these over the course of the last 6+ years and I can't think of a single time we've had a customer ask to return or later want to change suspension (this is often the case with Teins and many other shocks, where we get repeat customers coming back a year or two later asking to buy Ohlins). My advice to customers is always the same when they ask about other setups... SAVE UP and come back later if you can't swing them now. Do it once and you will not regret it later.

There are numerous benefits but here are the top ones:

DFV (Dual Flow Valve): So technically it's actually a triple flow valve but most shocks have two compression curves, low speed (for road control, and high speed (for body control)... the Ohlins has a third flow path for Ultra-High-Speed shaft acceleration which is meant to reduce the damping force when a high rate of shaft acceleration exists, such as hitting a curb on track, a pothole on the street, etc. Typically this sort of feature is reserved for $5000+ digressive suspension, but it's what makes the DFV's perform well yet ALSO be comfortable on the street. In lamens terms, the shock goes (relatively) limp when you hit a pothole, but is stiff when cornering.

Low Hysteresis: You'll see shock dyno graphs from most shock companies... however they usually only list half of the graph and delete the important part which is called Hysteresis (the slack in the suspension). Think of this as the equivalent of gear lash, but in your shock... it's the amount of movement of the rod, before the valving begins to take effect. First off, it's cheap to make sloppy valving, pistons, etc... and stock suspension really takes advantage of this with soft spring rates. The softer the springs the more travel the shocks have to act over, and the large amounts of slop before the valving begins to act is masked in this long stroke movement... they're soft therefore they can be sloppy. As you increase spring rate, you need to control the movement of the shock over smaller and smaller distances... this is where hysteresis levels become VERY important, as you can not afford lots of linear travel before the valving starts working. The undamped movement during this period is what causes the harshness and lack of control... high-quality suspension has very low hysteresis which is why you'll notice people say with "good valving you can run high spring rates and they don't feel stiff". Ohlins is extremely accurate...

Temperature Correction:
Ohlins contains a needle valve to correct for temperature changes in the shock body. As we all know oil viscocity changes with temperature and to hold consistent damping while the shock is changing temperatues cycling up and down or based on ambient temps, a temperature corrrection needle valve changes the flow rate as the oil viscocity changes. Pretty slick, and part of why the Ohlins are so consistent in so many different scenarios.

Separate pre-load and Height Adjustment:
Ohlins separates pre-load and height adjustment to let you independently set the two... some suspension have this some do not... we think that it's a requirement if you really want to tune your suspenson to your partitular cars setup.



So here's comes the pitch... (we were going to post tomorrow but were already posting on facebook about them and most have sold out so I wanted to give everyone a fair chance here). We've actually got a container of DFV's coming from Sweden and were able to snap up the last of their inventory in the world... as a result we were able to leverage some really amazing volume discounts with Ohlins just for this shipment and are passing the savings on to our customers.

As many of you know we're the #1 Ohlins dealer in the US for the last 5 years now and sell countless kits each year (50-100 depending on the year). We've always had supply issues with them and have to fight tooth and nail for production of FD units... but with all of the other chassis they support, the FD is miniscule and not many are made. Long story short, we pushed hard for a large production run and have a container in transit landing in 2-3 weeks... over the weekend nearly half our stock of FD kits have sold out.

We can not publicly post pricing due to manufacturer agreements, but I can guarantee you won't be disapointed if you email us. They are not free, but considering the competition, they already win on hardware and performance, but (at least for this batch) we can get them to you at a pretty compeditive price!

Please email info@sakebombgarage.com (preferred) or PM us if you are interested, but this is a one time shot and we're honestly selling out. We'll post an official thread tomorrow for remaining inventory but for now, this is a quick heads up for those interested. Please excuse the sales pitch... and back to technical discussion

Ohlins Road & Track DFV Coilovers (FD3S) - SakeBomb Garage LLC

IRPerformance

iTrader: (41)

Like I said, Ohlins would be the only suspension I'd personally run. There is nothing even remotely comparable in the price range. Give Heath at SakeBomb a call. Hes a great guy to deal with.

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

Thanks for the kind words buddy


BTW you don't see TEIN on Paganis and Koeneiggseig's for a reason (I had to share) Here's some hyper-car eye candy for everyone

Koeneigsegg Agera R


Huayra


More Pagani!

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Too tempting SB-- you guys got me

ZDan

That's probably about what I would choose for a performance street setup.

Driving “fast” on the street, you’re either fooling yourself driving at ~85% of the limit, or a big accident waiting to happen. At the track, you can drive at and over the limit repeatedly because you have a very good idea what the conditions are at every corner, there's usually a lot of runoff, and the other drivers are doing the same thing you are and going in the same direction.
On the street, you had *better* be keeping a ton in reserve…


While autoX may require stiffer spring rates in general for quick transitions, that does not mean that faster road courses want softer rates than slower road courses. It depends.

Cornering at the absolute limits of adhesion *at the track*, there's no reason that you should want MORE brake dive and MORE body roll for a track with higher-speed corners vs. one with lower-speed corners.

On the street, hopefully you are keeping A LOT MORE in reserve for the higher-speed corners, but that's different...

Softer springs are going to move around more. You do need to be able to react more quickly and precisely with stiffer spring rates. If you can't keep up and/or don't have a *very* good idea where the bumps/undulations on the road surface are so that you can anticipate, then yeah, it might feel like the car is "dancing all around" with stiffer springs as the car reacts more (greater change in individual tire loads) and more quickly vs. softer.


Backwards. Softer setups are more forgiving and tolerant of ham-fisted driving. Stiffer setups require more smoothness and finesse as well as quicker/harder maximum inputs. In the soft-for-the-track ~8/6 to ~13/11 ranges we’re talking about, “stiffer” is definitely ultimately faster around a road course, and it's not because they’re “more comfortable”.
Been over it before, but softer springs do not necessarily give more overall grip. Yes, if you soften one end of the car, you get more grip at that end. But you haven't gained grip *overall*. Soften the front springs and you reduce load on the outside front, and INcrease load on the outside rear. You've gained grip at the front but it's at the expense of grip at the rear. It's due to changing the roll stiffness distribution and which outside tire sees more load and therefore less grip/load. It does NOT mean that if you soften BOTH ends, you gain overall grip.

In fact if you have softer than optimal springs, you will lose braking grip due to excessive front camber under hard braking, *and* you'll lose cornering grip due to more camber lost during hard cornering.

Not to say that stiffer is always better for ultimate grip. It depends. But certainly with grippy tires at the track, you're going to be faster on springs much stiffer than 8/6 or even 13/11.

Which is why all the fast guys at the track ditch their sway bars, I guess? Oh yeah, they don't do that, they usually go to stiffer sway bars, at least at the front.
Linkie to data?
Could be the roll stiffness distribution was not ideal for a skidpad test and was improved with removal of sways.
Or the camber was more than ideal, and less roll stiffness/more roll actually gave a better tire footprint under cornering loads.
Or the run without sways had a higher peak.
Host of reasons why this anecdotal "evidence" should not be taken to mean "less stiff = more grip".

“Softer” does NOT universally mean “more grip”. Yes, if you soften one end of the car you gain grip at that end, but it's at the expense of grip at the other end, and for the reasons described above (changed roll stiffness distribution). Ditching both sway bars shouldn't generally give more grip at both ends. If it did, no race cars would have them.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

LOL

I can tell who's actually driven on a track at speed

Of course disconnecting the sway bar is going to give you more mechanical grip but you just tossed your high speed control out the window.

PS Driving 140 mph on the street is russian roulette

ItalynStylion

iTrader: (1)

Wouldn't keeping the sway bar ON effectively increase the spring rate for the coilover on the outside of the turn? I mean think about it, you get the spring rate from that single coilover under roll compression, but you also add to it the force of the other (now uncompressed) coilover on the inside of the turn. Kinda acts as a helper spring to keep it from just flattening out under extreme cornering. Is that logic sound?

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

That's exactly right.

They basically combine the susp or use the spring load of the inside shock/spring as well as the outside. That's why you frequently see track cars with the inside wheel lifted off the ground. The problem is you just took all the traction away from that inside wheel/tire which is why disconnecting gives you more grip when driving on a skid pad/circle but good luck trying to maintain speed through a slalom.

The reason you increase the front to cause a push is because the more bar in the front the less inside front grip you have so now you are asking that one tire to turn the car. The big front bar also increases the grip to the inside rear because the front inside isn't pushing down it's getting propped up by the bar so that rear inside now gets to hold more weight.

The same can be said for the rear bar to stop or create under/over steer.