Stopin’ on a dime and givin’ change :), parts review
 

What’s up fellas? Some of you might have read my post about two weeks ago I finally got my FD. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/passion-hunt-pride-pics-my-new-rx-7-a-472322/

I got the chance to install a few goodies on the car, Zeal B2 coilover suspension, Endless
6-Piston front brakes, and AME Circlar Spec-R wheels (18x9 Front, 18x10 Rear). I have had the chance to install these items on other peoples cars but never had the chance to do more of a long term every day experience with it on my own car.

Brakes:

As for instillation there is only one thing that can be said, smooth. Every part has it’s place, fit and finish is awesome no need to ream out any holes or trim anything to fit flush, all the hardware is there down to the little grommets that hold the SS brake line to keep it from chafing on anything.

As for road feel, it’s pretty amazing. For a race braking system I have to say it is more streetable that other systems I have used and installed in the past (AP racing, Wilwood, Baer Racing). Right out of the box the pedal feel is nice and firm, no Sponge Bob here. No noise what so ever, not even a peep out of them when there cold. The initial response is amazing, it takes pretty much no effort stop the car. With the initial response being so good you would expect the brakes to have issues and fade after driving, but that is not the case. After a few Touge runs with little bit of late braking, trail braking, and there was not a hint of fade in sight. I have yet to even see the full potential of the system. Once I have some time I will do a track day and let you guys know.

Suspension:

For install, well suspension install is suspension install. It’s just about the same but the zeal build quality is great. The PVS dial indicator for the adjustment is great, it has nice firm clicks and you can see what setting your on by looking at the window at the top. Pretty kewl stuff.

As for road feel, it does not kill the kidneys :). These are pretty much the best Coilovers I have ever ridden on. The ride so smooth, bumps don’t shatter my teeth, and for those married folk my wife actually likes the ride and was not complaining :). With all this increased comfort you would think the handling of the car would be diminished, but turn in is nice and sharp, corners are nice and flat, and feedback from the wheel is great.

I was so exited the day I installed them I did not get a chance to take pics of everything with the wheels off. Later this week I will pop off the front wheel and show you guys what’s up. But here is some outside pics in the mean time.

NICE I NEED THIS SETUP...........pm me with details please

Nice :) Do you have any clue how much wider the caliper is , compared to stock? Ive been thinking about a BBK, but am concerned my RE wheels will not clear.

the stock master cylinder is a limitation, I'm going with the 929 upgraded MC....alot cheaper than the big rotor kit, and, from reports I've read, the same firm pedal feel and top notch stopping power

Its not the master cylinder that makes you brake better. That just gives you a false sence of stopping power. The stock brake set up can stop the car in just as short a distance as any aftermarket system. Its brake fade due to heat that the big brake systems overcome.

don't create moronic posts like the one above without doing your homework please....do a search, there are plenty of good threads on this topic

assuming contact patch with the road is unchanged, braking force is a function of:

Effective Radius (distance from center of hub to center of brake pad)

Clamping Force (Total piston area x system pressure)

Coefficient of friction of the brake pads


https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=braking

"In a single stop from 60 mph, a big brake kit won't stop any sooner than stock brakes, and may in fact stop later due to less clamping pressure at the pad, assuming the master cylinder hasn't been upgraded also.

Even stock brakes have enough clamping pressure to lock the wheels, and at that point the weight of the car and the tires are what determine braking distance. Change to a stickier compound and/or increase the size of the contact patch or lighten the car and you reduce braking distance. The only thing that larger brakes are good for is being able to shed heat more efficiently, delaying brake fade longer under repeated hard use. The downside is an increase in unsprung weight."

- Jim Labreck


exactly....which is why "big brake" kits are essentially a waste of money for the street imo, aside from the "bling"/"look at my big rotors" factor :rolleyes:

Wow, your really really ignorant. You might want to do a little more homework yourself... If you will notice...What you said is exactally what I said...Weird. Get your reading glasses out before you critize.

you implied by your post above that upgrading the MC would result in no gain in braking performance...you're wrong

An upgraded MC will not result in shorted stopping distances or reduced brake fade, it will really only improve pedal feel by shortening the pedal travel and reducing brake effort. No "performance" increase there.....


EDIT -- And please watch the attitude with your posts, personal attacks will no longer be tolerated here. Thanks.

Congratulations, RotaryRacer! My Zeal B6s are still sitting in a box waiting to be installed...too much going on lately. Enjoy your new setup.

depends how you want to define "performance" then....improved pedal feel and shortened pedal travel is "improved performance" in my book, and the improved hydraulic force may decrease stopping distance, depending on what pads you have

I won't argue that improved pedal feel is a bonus, but it doesn't reduce braking distances at street speeds. Even with the stock pads, you can engage the ABS from fairly high speeds even with good tires.

Everything about Brakes by Grassroots Motorsports A must read!

https://www.rx7club.com/suspension-wheels-tires-brakes-archive-112/do-rotors-lines-pads-really-make-big-difference-231994/

Brakes do not stop cars. Tires stop cars. If the brakes can lock the tires then the tires alone will determine stopping distances.

Altering the brake system in any way will of course make it feel differently but that does not mean it will stop the car more quickly. "Big brake" kits exist because in racing situations the stock sized rotor cannot shed the heat of the brake system quickly enough. A more massive rotor has greater ability to shed heat and thus will not heat fade as quickly as a smaller rotor. Big brake kits do not stop cars in shorter distances, they merely do not overheat as easily and thus can slow the car repeatedly with less time needed to cool between each use.

Some people just like the look of big brakes as well.

Nope. Unless you don't know how to mash on the pedal in the middle your stopping distance will not change.

That's actually "brake torque". Basically that just allows you to reach the braking threshold quicker, but you'll still only stop as fast as your tires allow.

Thank you. You proved my point exactally!

"exactally" huh? :rlaugh:

the "grassroots" article was a good read

Wow I am glad that my post has caused a nice little spout between forum members
I don’t want to add more fuel to the fire but this kit was designed around the stock brake master cylinder. With the larger rotor size and increased clamping force from the stepped 6-piston calipers it has greatly increased the stopping capabilities of the car.

- SRA-FD3S: Shot you a PM

- Rxmfn7: I could get you the dimensions but better yet, shoot me a pm I just need some basic info off your wheels and I can help to get you into the correct BBK that will fit.

- rynberg: Thanks, you will be loving life when you get the B6’s installed.

- Dana “Can’t we all get along? ;)”

So what we're measuring here is how these compare to other big brake systems, assuming the tires are the same compound. Dana and I will begin our evaluation. Assume you have R compound tires to compare all of them. These brakes will effectively decrease your stopping distance.

Not only that but the pedal feel and modulation has been dramatically improved. I'm sure Dana will chime in if you guys allow him to.

I also simply upgraded the calipers on my RX8, stock rotors. The difference is extremely noticeable. I offer any local guys to come and feel the difference if you have a RX8 so you can see what a simple "caliper change" can do to your vehicle. Let's eliminate variables here and make a good relative comparison. While much of this might look nice on paper from a physics aspect I emplore you guys to test the product in real life conditions before making assumptions. The need for greater stopping power is dependent on your driving technique, power output of vehicle, and obviously assuming your approaching the limits of adhesion for the existing dope ass tires you have. Much of the braking improvement will also be noticed with "initial response" which has something to do with your tires but not as much as fully locking them up.

I'm just a dude who drives these cars all the time, customers, ours, I've tried lots of stuff like Dana. I'm speaking from pure experiences rather than going into the nitty gritty of laws of physics and formulas. Much of it has to be experienced and you'll see why.

nice setup danaburgiss

rynberg: i agree with dana you'll love your b6's. We love our b2's.

Damon, not to argue, but I think both brakes and tires stop cars. Each play a role in determining stopping distance.

You can be running R compounds, but if your brakes aren't up to the task, they won't be able to stop the rotor very quickly.

At the same time, you can have monster brakes that will simply clamp down on the rotor and stop it 100%, but if your tires aren't sticky enough, the wheels will just lock and keep sliding.

So I think both play a vital role in stopping power/distance. It simply comes down to what's the weakest link in the system. Feel free to correct me ;)

Oh and re: rotors that shed heat etc...I know a guy who runs a full carbon-carbon setup (not carbon ceramic aka PCCB crap that Porsche has), and he was telling me there is NO modulation whatsoever with the brake pedal. You slightly touch it, and the wheels lock up 100%. The ONLY way to get the car to stop is to run R compounds 24/7. Simply can't use street tires at all. :D

~Ramy

Tires stop the car, period. If the brake system stopped the car then you could stop just as quickly in the rain or snow as you could in the dry. If the brake system is capable of locking the tire on the surface then stopping distances will never decrease; the tire is already at it's limit of traction.

Here's a test that is quite simple on any car with ABS. With stock brakes accelerate the car to 60 mph and stomp the brake pedal hard to activate the ABS. Measure the stopping distance. Now install a big brake kit and repeat the test on the same tires. You'll find the stopping distance to be the same. Why? Because the ABS maintains the tire at its traction limit for us and since both brake systems activate the ABS and hold the tire(s) at the limit of adhesion the instant you stomp the pedal, they both stop in the same distance due to the same tires being on the car. This same test will also prove that brake fluid, brake pads, brake lines, drilled rotors, slotted rotors etc don't stop the car any quicker.

If we were to repeatedly stop or brake the car over and over there will come a point where both systems do a poorer job of converting the kinetic energy of the rotor into heat and heat fade sets in. You can be certain this will happen to the system with the smaller rotors first however. The ability to maintain lower brake temperatures is the advantage to bigger brakes. This pays off as decreased stopping distance only if the small brakes are experiencing heat fade. If the small brakes can be kept within their proper temperature range they will perform just as well as big brakes and they'll do it while be lighter.

You can certainly make brake systems feel differently to the driver and the driver may like those changes as they give him more confidence (or not!), but that does not equal a decreased stopping distance. Once the tire is at the limit of adhesion there is nothing you can do to make the car stop shorter.

From Grassroots Motorsports; 1991


Those Poor Rotors

Let's look ot some common rotor "modification" and "performance" upgrades that you may have been exposed to. We'll try to separate the marketing from the engineering: Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool, bigger rotors look sexy, but bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes--which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other ports of the braking system.

Take, for exomple, a Formula 500 racer, a small 800-pound, single-seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3000-pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, installing o GT1 brake package onto our formula car would probably do more harm than good. That's a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the gas pedal is pushed. So the motto of this story is bigger is better until your temperatures are under control. After that point, you are doing more harm than good, unless you really like the look. (And hey, some of us do.)

Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out phenomenon as the early pads.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.

The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized that they need to be drilled like Swiss cheese. (Look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car, for an example.) While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, drilling is used to reduce the mass of the parts in spite of these concerns. Remember that nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life, at the expense of higher weight. It's all about tradeoffs.

Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?).


In Summary

You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires stop the car.


For further reading please see the entire article, rotors are only a single part of the braking system interface. Everything about brakes

Ramy, this is true to a point. If the stock brakes cannot provide enough force to lock the tires, then yes you will not be at the braking threshold. Therefore, there is room for improvement for the brakes to get to that threshold.

However, the stock brakes are more than good enough to lock the tires so that's not an issue here. Once you are able to lock the tires and bring the car to the braking threshold, it's all up to the tires as there is nothing else the braking system can do.

Mahjik, I understood Damon's point 100%, but I don't know if he understood mine as you have.

I'm not talking specifically about the FD brakes, since they are - by all means - amazing and very capable. I'm speaking generally, to the brakes vs. tire debate.

Lets give an extreme example. If there were two Toyota LandCruisers (want a large heavy vehicle to demonstrate my point), both had the same stock rims, both wrapped in the exact same tires (R compounds), but one had the stock brakes, and the other had a complete big brake kit, guess what? The one with the big brake kit WILL stop in a shorter distance. Why? Because in the big tire vs. brake argument, it will always come down to the "rate determining step" (as we say in chemistry). What is the weakest link? The tires surely aren't in this case. In BOTH cases, the tires won't slide, because they demonstrate superior traction. The brakes, however, will make a huge difference. The stockers will be overwhelmed in trying to stop a 6,000 lb vehicle from a high rate of speed on a dime, and will simply take a longer time period to completely stop the rotors. The bigger brake kit will be able to stop the rotor in a shorter amount of time (as well as deal w/ the tremendous heat generated) a lot better. Shorter time translates to shorter distance (again, assuming the tires don't give in either situation).

That's all I'm saying...I'm arguing a general principle, that both brakes and tires play a major role in stopping distance. I'm not saying it's FD-specific, because I'm with both of you that the ONLY reason I see getting a bigger brake kit as necessary in an FD is for someone who's an avid roadracer, and will be plowing through turns, on and off the brakes repeatedly, where more efficient heat dissipation will be key. And that's specifically because the stock FD brakes are phenomenal, so the deciding factor here would be stickier tires.

~Ramy

No one has addressed brake balance (front to rear).

Here is some more info to read....................

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml

Enough good points have been made already, no need to beat a dead horse.

I did understand you but your perception of the physics is wrong.

Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage. Bigger rotors merely function as larger heat sinks. Your Land Cruiser experiment is a made up story that does not exist. I guarantee I can get in a stock Land Cruiser and lock the tires (or activate the ABS) nearly instantly by pressing the brake pedal.

Food for thought on that as well, most Japanese based big brake kits (Endless, Project Mu, etc) are made with the bais for the 99 spec rear rotors, which are 12.3'' if i recall correctly, as opposed to the stock USDM rear rotors.

Both the RS/RZ and USDM use a 2 piston caliper in the rear, just clearancing for larger rotors on the updated version. Most people on this board have had their calipers upgraded by R. Mandeville to fit larger rotors tho.

I didn't say bigger rotors stop the car better. Bigger and better calipers w/ a larger grabbing surface will stop a car in a shorter distance.

If my physics is flawed (which I wouldn't be surprised if it was), please clarify/explain why.

No they will not. If the "small" brakes can lock the tires (which every single car and truck I've ever been in can) than nothing else you do to the brake system will have any effect whatsoever on stopping distance. You can change the feel of the brakes with different pads, rotors or calipers but stopping distance will not decrease.

Tire traction determines braking distance. Once you're at the limit of traction you've "hit the wall" for how quickly the vehicle will stop. Read the Grassroots Motorsports article I listed earlier. It's all hashed out there and they do a far better job than I at explaining. Especially read the snipit from that article I posted above about "Those Poor Rotors".

Read all the links I've posted. Anything more and I'll just be repeating myself.

I'm yet to ride in a FD w/ upgraded brakes or any car that stops faster than mine...I've almost made passenger faint, haha! Brake pedal is almost more fun than the throttle.

stock brakes, hawk pads, super blue fluid, with Pzero Corsa rubber


and a proper functioning (1995) ABS.

You bet! I had OEM sized upgraded rotors, hawk pads, and a good flush on my FD.

As I would take a friend for a ride for the first time, I'd show them how fast it was, the handling, etc. But then I always concluded "and just as much as it go's fast, it stops fast!" and would really surprise (scare) them with how well the car just immediately slowed down...lol.

I should call this thread “The great brake debate” hahahah

Putting tires aside for a moment, what is the primary job of a vehicles brake system? It is to take the kinetic energy of the cars forward motion, apply friction, and stop the car. For this to happen you need to have a pressure source (master cylinder, hydraulic fluid, and the calipers pistons, etc.). And your friction surfaces (rotor and pads). A bi-product of this friction is heat, the more the friction surfaces heat up the less effective they become over time. So for conditions when brakes are used over a prolonged period of time, the additional heat caused by friction needs to be addressed. This problem can be accomplished in a couple different ways, #1 increasing the size of the rotor. The Endless rotor that I have is 314x32 compared to the stock rotor size at 294x22. This gives us a larger patch of space and more leverage for the pads to grab a hold of, a thicker chunk of metal to absorb the heat, and also allow the surface more time to cool before it is hit again with another batch of friction. #2 Use a different compound of brake pads (yes OE systems can get different pads as well, but either way I did get new pads with this brake system). A different compound of pads will allow for a harder or softer bite on the rotor (depending on situation) and will absorb the heat more efficiently. #3 larger caliper, the Endless caliper has 6 staggered pistons over a larger area. With this staggered piston set up you get an evenly placed clamping force to allow the pads to have equal amount of pressure across the pad (so that not one spot is higher than the other), this also allows for even pad wear. Also the larger caliper will act as a heat sink and pull more heat away from the system.

Other advantages are:
- better pedal feel and feed back from the system.
- Initial response
- All these new components are built with quality materials meant to take and withstand the heat and demand of this sort of stress (no warping, cracking).
- Yes the bling factor (guess I am a ricer hahah ;))


I am not disagreeing with you that an OE system can brake from 60-0 just as good (but it will take more effort out of the OE system to do so) but it will fade through out a prolonged period of time. If OE systems were the best than can be I don’t think that professional race teams spend lots of money to use, develop larger brake systems for there cars?

Ok consider the horse dead. I apologize that my post made so many people up set and caused drama in less than 24hrs. :(

- Dana

You have no reason to apologize. It's okay for people to be wrong, nobody should ever get "in trouble" or "flamed" for making a mistake.

Name calling and all of this pompous BS is really rediculous. If someone's confident in something they are wrong about, point it out, debate it, done. No need to be an ass about it...goodness...

Nice pics and info :)

If your rotors are capable of time travel then they truly are spectacular!

oiiii ve!
ok real world experience..
lets not be internet racers or
magazine racers.
remember guys what one magazine says might be totally contradictory of another.
but anyhow.
Pads make a huge difference. and if one pad has great initial bite.. compared to another
then the stopping distance will be shorter.. why? because of initial bite. if it takes say a millisecond compared to a second..
then that distance will be shortened. by a marginal ammount.. and remember.. that can mean totalling your car and saving your car. Another factor is that the leverage on the rotor with an oversized rotor. Now i know some guys w/ fd's that drift on the stock rear ebrake
they have a hard time locking them, even with a hydraulic setup it is still near impossible. They switch over to a bigger 99 spec rear and they can lock up. So sizing does make a difference. Also with the better pedal pressure of a big brake kit you can actually modulate the pedal more so that if you had abs disengaged or a non working abs car you can actually keep the car at its braking limit. I do wholeheartedly understand that tires are an important factor. although it is not the ONLY factor. i await your responses


Damonb.. i feel that your post is rather useless and refrain from being so uncivil. This is been a pretty good thread with very pertinent information. And by no means is this an attack on you.

Also. I've got one more thing to add to my previous post.

I do not own a Rx7
I own a 350z.
Now. I personally do 100-160 + mph braking stops on a regular basis
whether it be on track or somewhere else (and no you can't flame me for doing it on the street)
I Push the car ofter let us just say that.
The stock brakes are great. But if i am braking from 100+ mph
i cannot lock up because there is not enough leverage on the brakes. but from 90 and under i can easily lock them up. Now i am rolling on 255/40/18 tires front and 295/35/18 rear
Even w/ stock tires i was having hard time locking them up at 120-130

Now i don't know if a FD has the same probems but
a big brake kit will surely help and be able to keep you at your limits at 100+ mph where as stock may not be able to. Just a real world situation that i have noticed.

Which one?

A larger diameter rotor, caliper with larger pistons and pads calmping down on the larger diameter rotor (further from the axis) will give you a greater mechanical advantage to halting the rotation. If size made no difference at all (other than thermal dissipation), than I could put 5" rotors, tiny calipers with a 1/4" piston, and I could stop just as well. The mass and traction of a vehicle could overwhelm an undersized braking system. Size is important.

In our cars or any other modern car, the OEM braking system is more than adequately sized for the task at hand. It is very unlikely that one would add enough traction and mass to overwhelm it. In this case, bigger brakes would be capable of providing greater clamping or braking force, but it is irrelevant because you had more than you needed to begin with.

I could understand how larger brakes might feel better, as their greater mechanical clamping advantage should provide more aggressive deceleration for a given pedal pressure.

The most important thing to remember: big brakes do a much better job of filling all the empty space between your OEM rotors and your 18" wheels.

Disclaimer: the above should not construe that I have any idea of what I am talking about.

The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased.

You could certainly make a system that is incapable of locking the tire and of course braking distances would increase, but that was never the context of any big brake discussions here that I'm aware of.

DamonB

"The argument all along has been IF the current brake system can lock the tire than stopping distance cannot be decreased."

Maybe you thought so, thats not the impression I got. I don't think FD Newbie thought so either.

"Bigger rotors do not stop cars in shorter distances due to some perceived increase in mechanical advantage."

It is not perceived. It may not make a difference, but it is not perceived. Your statement above is non specific and is not true in all circumstances. You just admitted that.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree in regards to our cars, or hell, most cars. But on a general or hypothetical scenario it might not always be the case.

Here's my first post from this thread:

https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=14

It's in my first post and all the links to threads and articles I posted. How could there be any other impression?

I am the only one qualified to argue with Damon B :), and I find it difficult to find a case where he says something to arguing with*. This case is no exception. The stock brakes are capable of instantly locking up the stock rotor, regardless of what tires or wheels are on the car. You cannot do better than that. The only time that the stock brakes are not good enough is during repeated hard braking, such as would occur during road racing. Bigger brakes will perform better in this situation, and ONLY in this situation.

You're welcome Damon :D

*OK, maybe that thing about small radius turns being faster :)

FDNewbie:

And your reply:

The first sentence is wrong, the last is correct. As FDNewbie said "comes down to what is the weakest link in the system". You choose that the tires will always be the weakest link. If your brakes ever fail, let me know how well the tires stopped the car.

FDNewbie:

And your response:

I disagree. Engaging the brakes impedes the rotation of the wheels. The tires and road provide the coefficient of friction that allow this to slow the car. You need all these things and the weakest link, brakes, tires or road will determine your stopping distance. I got the impression that you were locked on to one set of circumstances and not considering anything else.

turbo timers are a waste of money for a street FD

Are we ALL still arguing about how cars stop?

I thought you pushed the brake pedal and it stopped? Right?

my car has this little switch, i throw it and my car pops a chute out the hatch, and then once im stopped it auto retracts.

Bullshit you liar.

I just realized my post makes no sense LOL