dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

(Totally stock suspension / tire setup, new tires, decent roads)

I'm driving a corner and force oversteer (too much throttle leaving a turn, or maybe a patch of anit-skid cinders). The back end starts getting loose and the wheels start to spin. To regain control:

How much should I countersteer? It seems like too much countersteer will cause a spin easier than too little - agree?

When should I drop the clutch?

By comparison, how would an experienced race driver do it and is it something I can learn?

Dave

Shinobi-X

I hope you are practicing in an empty parking lot or something.

With oversteer in the stock FD, you're mainly looking at the secondary turbo kicking in during the turn, putting you into a nasty situation. Learning how to control that would be my first approach to avoiding the problem.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Well, yes I'm not practicing things on public roads. It's not why the oversteer got started that I want to know about, my questions are about recovery.

However, I did have a scary experience before the new tires and dirty roads. So it did and can happen, which is why I want to know how to recover from it in 1) normal conditions and 2) racing conditions.

Dave

BrianK

not so much how much, but how long. The key is not holding the counter steer past the point where the rears start to regain control. It's not as easy as it sounds. The amount of counter steer depends completely on the nature of the skid & how fast the rear is snapping around - you want the front to catch up with the rear... as soon as they are going the same speed, you straighten out.
drop the clutch? never. doing anything drastic with the throttle while you're sliding is going to change the attitude of the car - it will change the nature of the skid while in mid skid, making it impossible to recover quickly (might be good for showing off, but not for getting yourself pointed in the right direction).

edit: (FYI) You especially do not want to lift off the throttle when the rear end starts coming around - that's only going to make things worse. Not only does it remove weight from the rear end, but it has a similar effect to pulling the hand brake. Be smooth with the throttle - it's kinda hard to keep your foot on the gas when the rear end comes around unexpectedly, but it's necessary.
You can learn it. go to a driving school or even an autocross/track day. The best way to learn is to experiment - the track is a good (and safe) place to do that.

JammerRX

I'm sure there is some mathematical or physical formula with friction and momentum that would tell you how much to countersteer, but seriously driving is all about feeling...some people can get in a car and do amazing things, others get in the car and just don't know what to do...its all a matter of your knowledge, understanding, and confidence in the both yourself and the car...if you start around a turn and goose it your not gonna have time to think "hmmm I wonder how much I should countersteer" you just feel it...thats why shinobi said he hopes your practicing in a parking lot cause you can mess up, even professionals goof...

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Thanks Brian. I'm planning on taking the car to a track driving school, but until then I'm stuck with a little parking lot practice.

Jammer: I learn much faster when I have a rough idea of what I want to execute, and you yourself said that it's important how much you understand. So if you're 'umm'ing the idea, sorry for asking you to think.

The time I got my car too loose my mistake was a combination of a few cinders on the road, too juicy with the throttle, and not straigtening from my countersteer fast enough. My past experience with countersteering has been at lower speeds with less responsive cars.

ROTARYFDTT

iTrader: (4)

You really can't discuss/teach countersteering in regards to how much to or how long to hold it because it obviously differs depending on whats going on the situation. Bottom line is you have to learn it and know it to the point where you almost instinctively act when the back end walks out. I really don't think you can TELL or TEACH a person the aspects of countersteering other than "when the back end walks steer into it". That’s pretty much it, YOU have to get a feel for it, learn yourself, and understand what types of correction for specific instances. But you really shouldn't try anything major until you've got the aspects down on another less powered, more predictable car if you’ve got one or perhaps one you and a friend can go out and have some fun in. Just go out and practice bro, its best to learn on a dirt road where the back end will walk easier and at lower speeds. It’s the only way to learn, but I recommend getting the aspects DOWN in a less powered car before getting in the FD on tarmac and trying to re-produce the same things.
I will tell you this though; you must have quick hands to control the back end walking in an FD. Because it requires extremely quick steering inputs that almost constantly vary depending on what’s going on, you can’t just turn the wheel and hold it there without losing it. Its not one fluid movement like less powered more predictable cars. Unless your on snow in an FD and probably dirt too with less extremes but I am not gonna try that.

Anyway I really hope that helps, to summarize just practice and learn, practice and learn. The only way to learn/reciprocate the elements of driving is by going through them repeatedly until it’s like second nature.

Sorry if I came off as a “know it all” because I absolutely do not, just said what I’ve gathered.

edit: ok cool you said you've had previous experiance so you know what your doing. Just start pushing your FD more and more to get a better and better feel for it and you'll feel more and more comfortable as with anything.
Have fun and be safe bro.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

OK, I'll going to summarize because things have wandered around some.

My question was how to recover from an oversteer condition, w.r.t. throttle, clutch, steering, etc.

The answer: keep the throttle steady (don't disengage the clutch, of course), and countersteer as needed to keep the front end in front. The car will come out of it, and your steering must be fast and based on feel - so practice is key. Recommended to practice with a less powerful car or on low traction conditions.

I don't have a dirt road or a less powerful RWD car, so I think I might get out on a wet parking lot sometime for practice.

DamonB

I agree with this but would just add that performance driving can be learned just as anything else. Just as in school, you can learn much faster with the help of a good teacher than you can on your own.

Rule #1:
Don't do anything stupid.

BrianK

I wouldn't say keep the throttle steady so much as be smooth with the throttle. A power off slide can be helped by giving it a *little* gas... a power-slide (when you give it too much gas around a corner) can be helped by lifting a bit *slowly*. The fact that we have turbo-charged cars with quick spool-up doesn't help when it comes to being gentle - this is why it takes a lot of getting used to.

another thing to think about: in a well balanced car (like the FD), as you approach the edge of traction, giving it gas will cause a bit of understeer, lifting will cause a bit of oversteer. This is how you can steer a car with the throttle around a long corner. Too much of either is a bad thing - it's all about practice (and getting used to turbo lag).

Kento

Best advice you'll ever hear...

Getting slideways on a dirt road is good for getting used to not panicking when the rear steps out and countersteering (i.e., not lifting), but the changing nature of dirt can lead to problems as the speeds get higher. Go relatively slow on a dirt road.

Quote:

I will tell you this though; you must have quick hands to control the back end walking in an FD. Because it requires extremely quick steering inputs that almost constantly vary depending on what’s going on, you can’t just turn the wheel and hold it there without losing it. Its not one fluid movement like less powered more predictable cars.

"Your hands deal in feet, and your feet deal in inches." Guaranteed that your hands will be a blur as you struggle to make steering corrections. But it's not just countersteering to control a slide, it's throttle control, too. And that-- especially in a high-strung turbocharged car like the FD-- requires precise, minute movements of the throttle. Simply countersteering correctly and holding the throttle steady will not guarantee that you'll recover, because as the rear tires begin to regain traction, the torque from the weight rebounding against the suspension will cause the rear to whip the other way. This is why you see so many drivers losing control when their car starts "swapping ends"; the weight of the car is rebounding against the suspension, sending the energy going back in the other direction.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, either, even though it sounds like it. Just trying to answer your questions from what I know. Just do like everyone says-- practice in a lower-powered car in a safe environment. Or better yet, enroll in a good driving school at a local road course.

One more thing: any good school will teach you that all sliding does is scrub off speed. It looks cool and shows car control, but you'll end up going slower than if you keep the tires in line.

DRAG0NEER

when your back end starts sliding, keep your foot on the gas pedal and point the front wheels to where you want to go. The key is to NOT over-countersteer and NOT let off the throttle! If you let go the gas and the rear wheels gain control while you're sliding, then your car will snap back into a nasty counterspin. I've practiced this many many times and I've gotten it down pretty good. Hope this makes sense.

Kahren

iTrader: (13)

if u are onteh gas too much exitingthe turn and the rear starts to come out u might want to slightly back off STILL staying ont eh gas, just to prevent too much power at the rear wheels from kepping teh *** to come out even more, while steerign in the direction the rear is goign in, if u completely back off u will need to make a lot more input in the steerign wheel to not loose control and still keep goign inteh same direction. most of the peoepl will tell u to stay on the gas as u were before teh car started to skid, but thats not alwasy the best thing to do. to get the feel of all this it takes a lot of practicing especailyl on the car liek an FD where everythign happens a lot faster.

u can pretty much do everything withteh steering but sometimes in certain situations its better to SLIGHTLY back off the gas, especialyl if the pavement is nto stable.

FD is very forgiving , u can go completley sideways and still reagain control if u know whatu are doing, the onyl problem is things occur at a lot faster speed so if u loose it, most likely, damage will be done.

e30 bmw or a toyota corolla the RWD model are great to learn on.