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Hi
Being trapped at the in-laws during Christmas with nowhere to escape i had a lot of time to think. About horsepower. And turbos. And horsepower.
I have been drooling over the EFR series for a long time, with some sexy specs and all that, but a proper EFR singel build will push me past 6k just on the kit from Turblown.
Then adding all the other bits and bobs i want its moving towards 20k with speed. And i am not in a position at the moment where i can park the car for a 3 year turbo project.
That is not gonna happen. So i set up a plan for what i would need to hit 400 RWHP reliable. Reliability is a goal. And i want **** to look OEM of course
Current mods:
- Koyo Radiator with complete new rubber in the entire coolant system
- Twin stock oil coolers, 99-spec front with ducts
- Redone rats-nest with quality silicone hose
- HKS downpipe
- Blitz Nur Spec catback
Choices:
Rotaryperformance fuel rail kit is chosen due to bolt-on properties. compared to others this is a small and simple unit.
2200cc injectors support my power goals, and more important, have OEM rx7 plug.
Not sure what pump to pick but i doubt i will run E85 at any point in the enar future, thus maybe the Walbro 400LPH is enough. Low noise is most important.
Adaptronic ECU, because nothing new beats the fetures per price. Also the tuner said Adaptronic was a good choise. with two add-ons it can support all emission equipment.
Upgraded boost sensor with harness adapter
Not sure what wideband to choose. anything that can handle the rotary heat and also works with Adaptronic.
Not sure if coil upgrade is needed
BNR Twin turbos. Either a used Stage 3 or the newer Stage2. Including a new OEM exhaust manifold
Custom made SMIC based on the PWR or Knighsport U type, utilizing all available space.
Is there anything i should change here, or stuff i have forgotten to add?
Last edited by Zepticon; Dec 30, 2019 at 05:00 AM.
Mods i forgot to add to the post is:
- Koyo Radiator with complete new rubber in the entire coolant system
- Twin stock oil coolers, 99-spec front with ducts
- Redone rats-nest with quality silicone hose
- HKS downpipe
- Blitz Nur Spec catback
Wideband wise, it all depends on what's driving/controlling the sensor. A **** controller will not encourage longevity... can your ecu drive the WBO2?
Personally I am going with the NTK sensor driven by my motec ecu on the suggestions of both my builder and my tuner.
I seem to recall you having some pretty awesome fabrication skills Zep... could you not fab your own manifold, exhaust and IC piping then start with an sxe turbo? You could always upgrade to an EFR later on as a drop-in replacement. This guy is currently less than $1k USD https://www.full-race.com/store/toyota/3sgte-1990-1999/3sgte-mr2-1990-1999-turbos/borgwarner-s300sxe-8376-62mm/
Last edited by fendamonky; Dec 30, 2019 at 06:05 AM.
I'd avoid the adaptronic simply because of how many issue's others have had. My suggestions for two options:
If you have a PFC Keep it, upgrade your ignition, build a more solid fuel system, and get a quality tune.
Get a different ECU with a patch harness made for the stock ECU connector, use CANbus components for wideband/EGT, and get an I/O expander to use for whatever additional sensors you want to run.
One thing I forgot to mention... I would DEFINITELY add a water injection system to your budget!! Even a simple boost activated on/off system could be a life-saver.
If you have a PFC Keep it, upgrade your ignition, build a more solid fuel system, and get a quality tune.
I got the stock ECU
Originally Posted by Molotovman
Get a different ECU with a patch harness made for the stock ECU connector, use CANbus components for wideband/EGT, and get an I/O expander to use for whatever additional sensors you want to run.
Chris Ludwig has always been very supportive of this community and is a dealer for Haltech, Syvecs, and AEM products. I'd contact him through his company, LMS-EFI, and discuss your plan. He will give you his input and make suggestions to you on what products to use, or custom build a patch harness or new engine loom if you already have another ECU in hand.
I'd avoid the adaptronic simply because of how many issue's others have had. My suggestions for two options:
Pretty sure that was true like 3,000 years ago when they just came out. But it's been a while now and Adaptronic seems to have worked out the kinks a good bit. PFC is certainly the gold standard with stock twin setups but it's still a bit limiting on what you can do with it.
Chris at Rotary Performance recently setup my car with a Link ECU and he seems to be totally smitten with it (from the tuners perspective). One thing he was able to do for me was wire in an OBDII port which is handy for getting info to a stereo screen, phone or tablet. Means you can have literally any gauge setup at any time which is kinda cool.
PS: Whomever stated to run a water meth system is right. You'll definitely want something for protection if you're really shooting for the 400 mark on BNRs. I'm running the AEM setup with the Sakebomb tank in the rear. Hoping to be operational next week.
I would go with better Haltec's or any Motec set up for rotaries, like the M800.
Motec is definitely far superior to most ECU's hawked on the forum. The downside of them is the entry price, most people aren't willing to spend $3k - $4k for an ECU.
On that note, I priced out an m800 and the equivalent m150. It's actually cheaper to purchase an m150 and it comes with more capabilities than the m800. An m130 is even cheaper still if you don't need the extra I/O's. The "entry level" motec is going to be an m84, they're good but still fairly basic by motec standards. The downside(s) of the m84 imo is a lack of knock input and an inability to repurpose unused (named) inputs/outputs to other functions.
A motec doesn't make sense given Zep's stated budget.
Last edited by fendamonky; Dec 30, 2019 at 10:08 AM.
@Zepticon Looking back at this I'm seeing you didn't list an expense for tuning, add $600 - $1,000 for it unless you're planning to street tune yourself.
Summary so far:
- Add water/meth
- Consider a better / more reliable ECU. Mentioned options are: Haltech, Motech, AEM and Link
Does anyone have any input on fuel pump, and what i would need ignition wise, if anything?
Originally Posted by Molotovman
Chris Ludwig has always been very supportive of this community and is a dealer for Haltech, Syvecs, and AEM products. I'd contact him through his company, LMS-EFI, and discuss your plan. He will give you his input and make suggestions to you on what products to use, or custom build a patch harness or new engine loom if you already have another ECU in hand.
I will. I have spoken a bit with him already, tho without any firm plans. ECUs are by far the most controversial topic, maybe even more so than oil
Originally Posted by ItalynStylion
Pretty sure that was true like 3,000 years ago when they just came out. But it's been a while now and Adaptronic seems to have worked out the kinks a good bit. PFC is certainly the gold standard with stock twin setups but it's still a bit limiting on what you can do with it. Chris at Rotary Performance recently setup my car with a Link ECU and he seems to be totally smitten with it (from the tuners perspective). One thing he was able to do for me was wire in an OBDII port which is handy for getting info to a stereo screen, phone or tablet. Means you can have literally any gauge setup at any time which is kinda cool.
PS: Whomever stated to run a water meth system is right. You'll definitely want something for protection if you're really shooting for the 400 mark on BNRs. I'm running the AEM setup with the Sakebomb tank in the rear. Hoping to be operational next week.
That is what i have gathered from reading as well, that most of the issues was with the earlier model, and the first batches of the new line.
I have also looked at Link, but i am not sure they support the Twins that well.
Water/meth will be added to the list for sure Since my car is Euro-spec i got all the water in the back, and a free spot in the front fender that i think is where the washer fluid is on US cars
Originally Posted by gmonsen
I would go with better Haltec's or any Motec set up for rotaries, like the M800.
Ill check them out. But i am not sure if they offer anything with enough in/out to replace the emission part of things on their entry level stuff.
Originally Posted by fendamonky
Motec is definitely far superior to most ECU's hawked on the forum. The downside of them is the entry price, most people aren't willing to spend $3k - $4k for an ECU.
On that note, I priced out an m800 and the equivalent m150. It's actually cheaper to purchase an m150 and it comes with more capabilities than the m800. An m130 is even cheaper still if you don't need the extra I/O's. The "entry level" motec is going to be an m84, they're good but still fairly basic by motec standards. The downside(s) of the m84 imo is a lack of knock input and an inability to repurpose unused (named) inputs/outputs to other functions.
A motec doesn't make sense given Zep's stated budget.
The ECU is one of the few parts i am able to move up on budget wise. Adaptronic as it sits will be at least $1650.
Originally Posted by Molotovman
Looking back at this I'm seeing you didn't list an expense for tuning, add $600 - $1,000 for it unless you're planning to street tune yourself.
Tuning is accounted for, just kept outside of this part since it is mostly independent on what i spec out here. We have a UK guy who visit norway yearly , doing a few dyno sessions on cars here.
Does anyone have any input on fuel pump, and what i would need ignition wise, if anything?
I'm running a Walbro Hellcat with the IRP pump adapter. I've only put 500 break in miles on the car since the rebuild when the pump was installed but during that time, I couldn't hear it at all. I'd picked that pump originally because I had thoughts of E85 initially before I went with the water meth kit. It's a good single pump solution that would support a very wide range of HP goals (even if you're running E85). Can't comment on longevity for obvious reasons.
You might have difficulty installing an aftermarket fuel rail while maintaining sequential twin turbos
I had to get a bit resourceful to make it work lol
Link will not support factory sequential turbo operation. It will run the OMP, though. The Link G4+ PnP will also fit inside the factory ECU case, just swap internals; simplifies mounting and routing a bit.
I'm running a Walbro Hellcat with the IRP pump adapter. I've only put 500 break in miles on the car since the rebuild when the pump was installed but during that time, I couldn't hear it at all. I'd picked that pump originally because I had thoughts of E85 initially before I went with the water meth kit. It's a good single pump solution that would support a very wide range of HP goals (even if you're running E85). Can't comment on longevity for obvious reasons.
Great! Ill add that to the list of options. Do you know if it will work with the stock FPR or if i need to go aftermarket?
Originally Posted by dguy
Double your budget :P
Kidneys and male prostitutes are not in demand around here, so i have few other options other than to either have this budget, or wait for way to long.
Originally Posted by $lacker
You might have difficulty installing an aftermarket fuel rail while maintaining sequential twin turbos
I had to get a bit resourceful to make it work lol
Thats why the Rotary performance one is on the list. I spoke with him on email just now and he said there are improvements coming to try and solve some of the issues and feedback from the forum here.
Originally Posted by IRPerformance
IGN-1A ignition system, gaskets for anything that is apart, hardware, etc. Do you already have the turbo kit?
Adding IGN-1A to the list. Bloody expensive turbo gaskets also.
I don`t have the turbo kit yet. a local guy have a low-mile Stage3 he wants to sell me, otherwise im looking at a stage 2. Hopefully there are some of them out in the field by the time i get to the turbo purchase so i can make a better decision.
Originally Posted by cloud9
Link will not support factory sequential turbo operation. It will run the OMP, though. The Link G4+ PnP will also fit inside the factory ECU case, just swap internals; simplifies mounting and routing a bit.
Are your stock turbos going out? Why not save the 2k and keep your stock turbos? Have you driven a 400whp FD? It’s pretty damn fast. If you get 380whp for 5k instead of your 6k budget you’ll be more than happy. If you end up wanting more you can save up while having a nice running FD.
Are your stock turbos going out? Why not save the 2k and keep your stock turbos? Have you driven a 400whp FD? It’s pretty damn fast. If you get 380whp for 5k instead of your 6k budget you’ll be more than happy. If you end up wanting more you can save up while having a nice running FD.
Truth be told....that's not bad advice. And when your stock turbos kick the bucket, the rest of your car (fuel and cooling systems) will be built to support higher HP levels. At that point, you'll just need to go with the BNRs or a good single to step up.
Are your stock turbos going out? Why not save the 2k and keep your stock turbos? Have you driven a 400whp FD? It’s pretty damn fast. If you get 380whp for 5k instead of your 6k budget you’ll be more than happy. If you end up wanting more you can save up while having a nice running FD.
I think this is really sound advice even if you end up spending $6-or-even-7,000 to upgrade everything else and 380 whp will feel pretty much just like 400. (I think we have seen 410 whp on stock twins, though I wouldn't recommend it.) And, listen to Ihor. Add the IGN-1a system as well as the gasket sets.
Seems an odd assortment of parts and a bit light-on for pesos. I'm not sure twins on petrol at 400hp would be classified as wholly reliable either, unless it's a happy dyno. Redoing the rats nest is all very well and good, you're likely to run into a lot of solenoid issues above 1 bar, which you'll need to do with any hope of getting near that power figure and trying to run sequential, EGTs, emap yuck as a result!
Despite vastly superior longevity of OEM parts, I wouldn't use a stock reg with a big fuel pump, even if the rail is made for it. Those CNG injectors, enough bad luck stories with the fuel over here I wouldn't use them either unless driving the car near every day and bench testing regularly. 4 x 1300 will get you 300kw even with a partial ethanol mix and still be safe on duty cycle. Typical olden days uprated twin fuel system on petrol was just stock 550s and 1100 secondaries in these parts, even if they were the crappy side feeds.
Manifold cracked? You should be able to pick up a 2nd hand one far less than that, if that's the case.
Kidneys and male prostitutes are not in demand around here, so i have few other options other than to either have this budget, or wait for way to long.
Don't sell yourself short man, everyone's got a kink :P
