save the whales, SAVE YOUR MOTOR
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From: NC
Get your oil analyzed to be sure, but because of the super rich AFRs at full boost, it's very common to see 5-10% fuel dilution within 1000 miles. I never run any oil in these engines more than 2000 miles (pre-mixing has nothing to do with it).
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From: NC
1/2 oz per gallon is fine for the street, I've been running 15 psi for years now at 1/2 oz with zero issues (Amsoil). At 20+ psi, I can see increasing it, but increasing it too much effectively leans out the AFR. Again, you don't need much. "More is always better" just results in more smoke.
howard,
I have few questions about pre-mix...
One, Phase separation of oil and gasoline over time. What is your thoughts on that?
Two, 2Cycle oil with now most common E-10 Gasoline.... What is your thoughts on that?
Personally, I agree that clean oil being injected is better than dirty. But at the same time, I know REWs with 100K miles on original engines that runs fine. If "EOP" is factually real, than I would think mazda would of done something about this over past 40 years and not put more oil jets on the newer version of Renesis. Again, I'm no expert but until some sort of scientific side by side testing is done with same external condition, its still one person's word vs. another.
Also, isn't your engine see high revs?? Isn't that what we hear all the time about how to reduce carb build up?? So, again, I can't really put my finger if getting rid of EOP and pre mix is the results of your clean engine or fact that your engine sees high rev on the track...
I have few questions about pre-mix...
One, Phase separation of oil and gasoline over time. What is your thoughts on that?
Two, 2Cycle oil with now most common E-10 Gasoline.... What is your thoughts on that?
Personally, I agree that clean oil being injected is better than dirty. But at the same time, I know REWs with 100K miles on original engines that runs fine. If "EOP" is factually real, than I would think mazda would of done something about this over past 40 years and not put more oil jets on the newer version of Renesis. Again, I'm no expert but until some sort of scientific side by side testing is done with same external condition, its still one person's word vs. another.
Also, isn't your engine see high revs?? Isn't that what we hear all the time about how to reduce carb build up?? So, again, I can't really put my finger if getting rid of EOP and pre mix is the results of your clean engine or fact that your engine sees high rev on the track...
in all honesty we're doing you guys a favor by trying to keep carbon out of your engines and premature rebuilds(which we make money on).
what do we really have to gain by possibly exaggerating how well premixing your oil benefits your car? it doesn't at all, it in fact reduces the amount of possible rebuilds each year saving our customers money. i don't plan on running an OMP on any of my cars in the future because i know the pros and cons of relying on one vs the other.
try actually reading the thread. there are many engine builders in this thread who have plenty of experience with OMP and non OMP cars with varying miles and results.
in all honesty we're doing you guys a favor by trying to keep carbon out of your engines and premature rebuilds(which we make money on).
what do we really have to gain by possibly exaggerating how well premixing your oil benefits your car? it doesn't at all, it in fact reduces the amount of possible rebuilds each year saving our customers money.
in all honesty we're doing you guys a favor by trying to keep carbon out of your engines and premature rebuilds(which we make money on).
what do we really have to gain by possibly exaggerating how well premixing your oil benefits your car? it doesn't at all, it in fact reduces the amount of possible rebuilds each year saving our customers money.
Bottomline, do what you wish to do and listen to whom every you think.. Just think before believing those.
The 7 can't lose!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 487
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From: Adelaide, South Australia
http://www.fdrx7.com/forum/showthrea...ghlight=premix
Also a good premix article ..
http://www.fdrx7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3385
I have read and been reading this forum and talking to people about pre-mix and what not for years... Bottomline is, if you want to talk about longevity of pre-mix engines, I have yet to see one make 100K miles on just pre-mix.. Maybe some of you whom are actually saying have seen it make 100K, but I personally haven't. My non-pre mix with "EOP" have made mid 80k on original engine until coolant seal failure. And even with those who have said not to put synthetic in the engine.. But some of you thinking so strongly about this makes me wonder even more as there are MANY factors that plays in reducing carbon. Also, its excessive carbon that 'might' cause issue at certain temp, ignition, etc. I think some of you over think even though most of you wouldn't make much of a difference except few people who say it does..
Bottomline, do what you wish to do and listen to whom every you think.. Just think before believing those.
Bottomline, do what you wish to do and listen to whom every you think.. Just think before believing those.
your right though, you can only lead a horse to water.
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From: NC
No, the bottom line is four cycle oils are not designed to burn in the combustion chamber of any vehicle. Period. End of story. All you have to do is tear down an old Chevy engine with bad valve guides to see all the caked on deposits. Been there, done that, many times. Again, 1+1=2. You're trying to defend a anti-scientific position which cannot be defended from the standpoint of logic, aside from starwman arguments such as "oh but my OMP motor went 80,000 miles" (who cares?) or "Mazduh couldn't have screwed up that bad". Really? The FD has many blunders like this which just you shake your head. This is an iron clad case. Burning four stroke oils is dumb. I dare you to send Mobil an email trying to argue otherwise and print their reply here.
Idemitsu suggest 1/2oz per gallon.
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_210.htm
some have claimed to have spoken to Idemitsu about running no OMP and still get 1/2oz per gallon response.
http://www.idemitsu-usa.com/page_210.htm
some have claimed to have spoken to Idemitsu about running no OMP and still get 1/2oz per gallon response.
This is also complete nonsense. Most of the GP1200R (waverunner) guys on Greenhulk.net have been running 40:1 for many years in the triple cyclinder two strokes and the motors look great at tear down (assuming you're running a quality oil).
http://greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116918
Two stroke oils, like everything else, have come a long way in the last 20 years.
http://greenhulk.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116918
Two stroke oils, like everything else, have come a long way in the last 20 years.
well if the FD has a tank capacity of 20 gallons
20:1 ratio would be 128oz per tank (or 6.4 oz per gallon)
40:1 ratio would be 64oz per tank (or 3.2 oz per gallon)
1/2oz per gallon ratio is a 256:1 ratio. which seems sorta low to me. /shrug
20:1 ratio would be 128oz per tank (or 6.4 oz per gallon)
40:1 ratio would be 64oz per tank (or 3.2 oz per gallon)
1/2oz per gallon ratio is a 256:1 ratio. which seems sorta low to me. /shrug
I agree, grimp. I think 128:1 is a bit low, too, for atomized lubrication. I would suggest somewhere between 2-3oz per gallon, and thats really starting to mess with the octane ratings(not to mention cost and smoke a lot). My preferred method would be to modify the OMP to sump from a seperate tank of 2-cycle oil. You get the benefits of ashless two-cycle AND the more effective direct application. I guess the drawback is the possibility of OMP failure. Maybe you could hedge your bets and premix, too.
do anyone know if the OMP still injects oil in decelaration?
if that happens and we remove the omp , what about the decelaration when the fuell injectors are shut off and the engine revs at about 8000rpms?
is it a problem?
if that happens and we remove the omp , what about the decelaration when the fuell injectors are shut off and the engine revs at about 8000rpms?
is it a problem?
And who knows if that's what caused the failure, you're guessing.
1/2 oz per gallon is fine for the street, I've been running 15 psi for years now at 1/2 oz with zero issues (Amsoil). At 20+ psi, I can see increasing it, but increasing it too much effectively leans out the AFR. Again, you don't need much. "More is always better" just results in more smoke.
1/2 oz per gallon is fine for the street, I've been running 15 psi for years now at 1/2 oz with zero issues (Amsoil). At 20+ psi, I can see increasing it, but increasing it too much effectively leans out the AFR. Again, you don't need much. "More is always better" just results in more smoke.
1oz ratio does not produce any smoke. I run it on both my 20B FD and 13B-RE Vert with great success. There is absolutley NO argument that you could possible provide that would convice me to reduce the ratio to 1/2 oz.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; Feb 16, 2010 at 06:36 AM.
it does.
The lubrication stops. It is a problem.
if that happens and we remove the omp , what about the decelaration when the fuell injectors are shut off and the engine revs at about 8000rpms?
is it a problem?
is it a problem?
124:1 in rotary terms cannot be compared exactly to a 2 stroke premix chart and it can be changed a bit, downside to too much oil is premature spark plug death in a rotary. comparing the 2 would be like saying the premix in a rotary also has to supply oil to the rotor and stationary bearings as well and even 1 ounce per gallon would be NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH oil to do that.
i think 1/2 ounce per gallon is doable but only if you rarely drive the engine hard, 1 ounce per gallon seems like a happy medium for most applications. 2 ounces or more will smoke and oil foul plugs rather quickly.
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From: NC
No, my friend, once again you simply don't know what you're talking about. The GP1200R engine is well known for fatigue "crank walk" after about 150 hours. It has nothing to do with insufficient lubrication. The thread was intended to provide an example of mix ratios, not for you to jump on a another forum for two seconds and immediately proclaim yourself an expert on the 66V two stroke.
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From: NC
No guesswork here, I have seen the results of improperly lubricated Apex seals far too many times, from failed OMPs. I pulled the engine, rebuilt it, increased the premix to 1oz/ga and everything was good. That engine was pulled after 6k miles, disassembled, looked like new inside. Premix and water injection.
1oz ratio does not produce any smoke. I run it on both my 20B FD and 13B-RE Vert with great success. There is absolutley NO argument that you could possible provide that would convice me to reduce the ratio to 1/2 oz.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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From: NC
before we finish i want to point out that not every 2 stroke is built the same and they require different lubrication for each type. just like rotaries there is no label you should go by for every instance. try running 50:1 in an old and tired early 80's 2 stroke and see how long it lasts before the rod bearings give up or the rings fail and start grabbing the non nickelsil cylinder walls.
