Yes, I called them but they haven't called me back yet. I'm gonna ask them about my setup or an OEM setup.

 

David, have you considered that your 3-rotor may be the outlier and that battery might have worked fine with a relatively-stock FD? You've got a bit more going on in terms of electrical demand to support the additional injectors, coils, and fuel pump(s). Once the engine is running the alternator should be providing enough power to run the entire electrical system and charge the battery. If you experienced problems like an undervoltage-protection kicking in when the engine was already running, I would take a look at your own alternator setup before telling other people their already-installed battery shouldn't work.

 

From his previous post the information came directly from the battery manufacturer and has nothing to do with having an extra rotor. If that is truly AG's stance on the subject then I think it supersedes any random speculation.

 

I'm waiting for AG to call me back, but I'm curious are there any actual owners who experienced a major problem with these batteries as stated by David Hayes?

 

SpinningDorito is correct as well as you are too - I am an outlier as my FD is a heavy consumer of electrical demand. But - and this is the important part - my comments are not related to using the ATX30 in a 3-rotor, they are related to the use of the battery in a "regular" FD. I've had a series of conversations with the technical staff at AG about the use of the ATX30 not just for my car, but as a solution for FDs as a whole and they are pretty clear that they do not recommend it due to the way it is designed, i.e. for motorcycle use. The battery is not designed to allow "deep draws" that our cars can experience.

My initial problem with the regular ATX30 manifested itself pretty quickly and this is without the engine even being on. The restart feature triggered - meaning the battery went to a zero state which basically kills the car - when I was testing my headlights. So, the engine wasn't on nor was the ignition, just the headlights. Now, I do have a retrofitted setup that uses HID projectors and LED high beams, so I draw more power than a stock setup but it's not that crazy in its demands.

This prompted me to contact AG and I was surprised to learn that they do not recommend the ATX30 for use in FDs for the reasons I have stated. In fact, I don't think I ever even mentioned to them I had a 3-rotor. They indicated the battery is an okay solution for small 4 cylinder cars and it might work for a non-modded to slightly altered FD, but they highly recommended I swap out the regular ATX30 to the deeper draw ATX30 HD version as they had successfully tested that battery in cars like modded Supras. So, I made the swap and have had zero issues since. For me, the extra bucks were worth the peace of mind.

I've offered up this info as I think it's important to get away from anecdotal information - one person's experience, be it the OP's or mine - to recommendations that come directly from the designer and manufacturer, AntiGravity. They are an awesome company with which to work and I'd seriously consider their advice. If you own an FD and want a great lithium battery that has little weight and high CCAs, then go with the ATX30HD or even better, the 51R series.

Hope everyone has a great day!

 

So I got off the phone with Anti-Gravity batteries. Talked to Chad there for reference. He's saying the ATX30 w/ Restart works fine assuming nothing is wrong with the car in the first place. Meaning no power draw from sitting, alternator works, etc. He did say because its a compact battery the restart features may give you 2-3 restarts only. Whereas a bigger restart battery may give you 6-10 restarts if your battery dies. So if you have a concern that your car draws power and kills the battery often than consider a bigger battery. But I think you have other problems to address if thats a concern. He did say there are no potential problems that the ATX30 can cause me if my electrical system is working fine. If you have lots of aftermarket mods that draw a lot of power to start a car than yes it would make sense you get a battery with more power reserve as you may need to prime all the other electrical equipment.

But in the case of a proper working mostly stock RX-7 the ATX-30 is more than sufficient. Also assuming you don't leave it sitting for weeks on end without trickle charging or driving it. So if I ever plan on having it sit I will have a trickle charger on it, but thats the case with any exotic car that sits. I've had Lamborghini's batteries die from sitting for a week.

 

Do not use a regular trickle charger on a lithium battery, it may ruin it.

 

Thanks for the reminder, I do have a CTEK Lithium trickle charger.

 

it's entirely possible that there are 3 different conversations have been had with Anti Gravity personnel.

Sakebomb Garage talked to one guy one day
David Hayes talked to one guy one day
EVS Turbo Tuber talked to one guy one day

 

Yup, sounds like it. lol Well I think the obvious thing to look for is if there is indeed someone that had an issue with this setup which I cannot find.

 

Cheers and happy Friday everyone!

Without trying to be confrontational, I just got off the phone with Chad from AG. He confirms that AG does not recommend the regular ATX30 for use in FDs. He states "there is a reason we list the ATX30 under the "Powersports" category, not the automotive section."

He also confirms what I have posted, that the regular ATX30 was designed using "motorcycle" logic that is not intended for automotive use. He also confirms that there are better, more compatible batteries for the FD, including the ATX30 HD - if you don't want the restart feature - and the 51R series designed for autos and including the restart feature.

He is also going to use the SBG GB of the ATX30 as a training example for his technical advisors, one of a "don't do this" example.

Chad states that his conversation with EVS.TurboTuner was not intended to be a blanket approval of the use of the ATX30 in an FD. On the contrary, he stated he said that based on EVS.TurboTuner's setup, he would "probably" be okay continuing to use the battery, but he would not recommend its use by other FD owners.

Finally, like what I have previously posted, he highly encourages anyone interested in an AG battery to contact AG directly, so they can help to properly size a battery for that particular application.

I'll end by saying I am sure we all have the best of intentions in this thread and I appreciate the civility of the community.

 

He only says he doesn't recommend it because its not a deep cycle battery in the sense that you cannot park the car for a long period of time and expect it not to die or have a lot of juice to restart a stubborn car. The battery is 5.5lbs only. I already clarified this, not once did he say its dangerous to use. So for daily drivers and OEM cars there isn't an issue which he confirmed with me. I don't know why you seem to make it sound like this is a dangerous setup which he confirmed it is not dangerous. I'll report back in 2-3 months that way it'll be half a year of experience and i'll continue to update this thread as long as I have this battery in the car. In fact its starting to get into the 50s temperature wise so I'll let everyone know if I have a hard time starting the car. As with my current experience I would not hesitate to buy another one. My car is stock enough which pulls no weird electrical loads or has no charging problems. I don't work for Antigravity nor do I work for Sake Bomb Garage. This is a honest review with actual real world ownership/experience. Again, I cannot find any reviews that are saying this could be bad/dangerous for the car. Can you point me out to that? I really can't find any bad info on this battery with cars.

If you are going to park your car for months on end I can see why this battery wouldn't be a good idea, but for daily drivers that are OEM or OEM+ without any crazy electrical loads I don't see a problem nor does AG based on our conversation. Nothing dangerous about it.

 

I am not sure you understand the concern or the failure mode that David is trying to share with you. This has nothing to do with how the battery starts the car, it has to do with the "Restart" functionality that is built into the battery's integrated charge/discharge logic controller.

Even a normal car is going to have a "crazy" electrical load compared to a motorcycle or ATV. Its unfortunate none of these statements from AG are in writing, but I have no reason to doubt David and AG had these discussions based on how he has presented them here.

As far as not seeing posts about issues. You are talking about a forum for a niche car, and on top of that a small niche of the forum that are running these small LiPo batteries so in all likelihood you'll have to be your own guinea pig. I hope its overblown and you have no issues with it, but man would it suck to lose power to the fuel pump while driving (or more likely to the entire car).

That's the definition of risk though. The likelihood of it happening to you * how bad the result could be

 

Not correct. AG - and specifically Chad - does not recommend the ATX30 for the very reasons I have posted in this thread. This is all straight from Chad and the previous 4 other or so techs I have spoken to at AG. Read my last post which is a direct recap of my conversation with him a few hours ago and then, go re-read the details I have previously posted and you will learn all you need to know. This is not my opinion, it is details provided directly by those who design the AG line of batteries.

The ATX30 is a motorcycle intended battery, not a car battery. Period. I can't be any clearer than this nor can AG on its intended use. Like Chad stated, there is a very obvious reason it isn't listed as a car application battery. It's all in the logic used to program the battery management restart system in the ATX30 that makes it incompatible - or let's say less than ideal - with use in an FD. This is why Chad and AG specifically recommend the HD version of the battery if you want to go with a lighter weight battery or the 51R, if you want the restart feature.

Also note that I have had a direct, negative experience with the regular ATX30 so I am not just posting up crap for no reason. Yes, my car is more modded and a 3 rotor, but this is how I learned of the incompatibility issues in the first place.

Now that you have the info, it is certainly your right to proceed with the use of the ATX30, but my goal is to help others make an informed decision based on the facts, not personal conjecture.

 

You've stated the issues much better than I have. And yes, if this was coming directly from AG, I would hope it would be better received. Note when I just spoke with Chad, I specifically relayed to him what I was going to post and he approved the statements.

I'd say at this point I've done all I can and it's time to move on.

 

I will say that it does seem more like a bug in their controller software/logic than anything else. Based on my limited experience working with controllers that respond to battery voltages to catch when the car starts, I do totally believe it's an issue that could be shipped in a production product.

That said, they should be able to monitor/filter the voltage values better to avoid this issue outright. A high load while still being fed from a healthy charging system *should* look very different to the system than what it looks like when cranking the vehicle, or having a consistent drain on the battery from something like the headlight being left on (the situations where I think the restart feature would want to kick in to protect that last bit of battery capacity).

I can see where someone might think "well you can pretty much drive with a bad battery or capacitor as long as the alternator is doing its thing so who cares if it trips the restart logic" but the zinger is that the LiPo controller might actually break the circuit instead of just separating the LiPo cells from the input voltage.

I don't make LiPo batteries and I'm not an electrical engineer, but I have seen dumber things coded into software before so this is just my vaguely educated opinion.

 

I think the whole logics setup has to do with tailoring a battery to the specific needs of a type/class of vehicle, i.e. "Powersports" or "cars," but I am not an engineer either so what do I know?

Also, as a final post on the topic of the ATX30, I did reach out to AG to ask them to review my post and then see if I had misstated anything in the info I provided. Here is the exchange which I hope puts the issue to rest:

My email:

Hi Chad,

Thanks so much for your time today. I appreciate the conversation about the use of the ATX30 in a Mazda RX7. I wanted to let you know what I have posted up on the forum so please feel free to correct me if I have misstated the conversation:

"Cheers and happy Friday everyone!

Without trying to be confrontational, I just got off the phone with Chad from AG. He confirms that AG does not recommend the regular ATX30 for use in FDs. He states "there is a reason we list the ATX30 under the "Powersports" category, not the automotive section."

He also confirms what I have posted, that the regular ATX30 was designed using "motorcycle" logic that is not intended for automotive use. He also confirms that there are better, more compatible batteries for the FD, including the ATX30 HD - if you don't want the restart feature - and the 51R series designed for autos and including the restart feature.

He is also going to use the SBG GB of the ATX30 as a training example for his technical advisors, one of a "don't do this" example.

Chad states that his conversation with EVS.TurboTuner was not intended to be a blanket approval of the use of the ATX30 in an FD. On the contrary, he stated he said that based on EVS.TurboTuner's setup, he would "probably" be okay continuing to use the battery, but he would not recommend its use by other FD owners.

Finally, like what I have previously posted, he highly encourages anyone interested in an AG battery to contact AG directly, so they can help to properly size a battery for that particular application.

I'll end by saying I am sure we all have the best of intentions in this thread and I appreciate the civility of the community."

If I am misspoken, let me know.

Chad's response:

"You're welcome David...and the response is very well stated."

 

Appreciate you putting so much research into this. I think its important to point out nobody has had an issue with an ATX30 with an original car and components or even my situation with upgraded audio system. I am sorry you had a bad experience with your swapped 3 rotor and whatever else you have done, thats probably the reason. But most people here have stock cars with original engine and components. So its important to note that Sake Bomb Garage has been selling a lot of these without negative feedback. I can't be the only guy that bought that battery from them. lol

 

Correct. There isn't anything strange with the FD3S. At least I'm having great experience and I'm going on 3-4 months now and its been great.

 

I'm just going to reiterate clearly here.

If your voltage drops to ~12.5 or below even momentarily the "restart" feature in this battery will trigger and put the battery into protection mode until you pop the hood and press the restart button. You will most likely lose all electrical power in this situation.

Anyone comparing the ATX-30 with the ATX30-HD can take that fact and the information from AG in this thread and do as they wish. The HD model is a little more expensive, but doesn't come with the restart feature and does not introduce this possible failure mode.

 

Thanks, but I had already done the research on this as I was having an issue. Note the problem has nothing to do with my car being a 3 rotor - as I have pointed out, my car was not even on when the problem first occurred. Did it trigger because of my headlight "mod?" I'd say probably yes, as HIDs draw a momentary spike of power to turn on and that is most likely what set off the restart "sleep mode."

The whole point here is:

1) The regular ATX30 is not designed for automotive applications,
2) Antigravity does not recommend them for install into FDs,
3) The restart feature, because it activates at a higher voltage level than what is designed for cars, is a potential failure point if you decide to run one in an FD, and
4) The are better options that will not introduce the failure such as the ATX30 HD and the 51R series.

You can choose to accept these facts or not, I'm just here to give you the info and help others avoid making a mistake. SBG knows of these facts as I posted them up in their GB and I would be disappointed to learn that they continue to sell a product that is not suited for the purpose, especially when other, better options exist.

 

I can't say its a fact as everything is working perfectly fine for me and I cannot find anyone else that has an issue with this battery except for you.

 

What I have posted are facts - period and end stop. The issues identified are not my opinion, they are the facts as presented by the designer and manufacturer of the battery, Antigravity, and relayed by me to you in this thread.

That you choose to ignore the facts and rely instead, on your personal 3 months or so experience with the ATX30 is your choice, but your positive experience to date (or my negative one) doesn't change the basic facts as laid out.

I really hope you continue to have good luck and it all works out for you. If you do want to learn of issues others have had attempting to use the ATX30, you can contact AG for these. I can't say if they have any other FD owners that have reported issues as I didn't specifically ask, but there are plenty of other types of cars that have had problems which is the reason why AG doesn't recommend its use in cars and frankly, the reason I swapped out to the more appropriate ATX30 HD. Like I also said, if the 51R series was available when I swapped to the more compatible HD version, I would have gone that route instead.

 

I'm not ignoring facts, you just have no cases other than your own saying its bad for RX-7s. So at this moment its your words against mine until there is actual other people who can chime in to show support either way. There isn't even a hint of anything that can go wrong with this battery. You can end your conversation because this is my review not yours. You can go open another thread if it matters to you that much. But it would be nice you stop posting as you are just repeating yourself and there isn't enough facts out there for you to say this battery doesn't work, because for a fact it works as its in my car and I'm using it every week. Thanks for your opinion and you don't need to repost as its just going to go back and forth, I got your point and anyone who reads understands its your opinion. My post is about my review now yours, one post was enough.

 

How long have you had yours and any issues? Mine has been perfect, but a member here vehemently things there are potential problems with this setup.