Reliability mods or just leave stock?
01-20-12, 04:03 PM
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Reliability mods or just leave stock?
So I just got an FD with 23,000 original miles on it. Bone stock with the exception of a cat back exhaust. I am 34 and I dont plan on taking it to the track or running it into the ground - I just love these cars and love driving them. It will be my daily driver in summer and other than the occasional hammer down while getting on the expressway to put a smile on my face, I dont plan on abusing it. I plan on changing the oil every 3,000 miles or sooner.
Given the history of these engines, what I am looking for is to keep it as long as possible. I have done lots of research both on this site and other RX7 sites and read Rob's "Reliability mods" page many times. While I dont mind doing it if it will in fact prolong the life of my engine, I am torn as to if I put the time and money into the "reliability mods" (downpipe, air intake, AST). I have read how the stock pre-cat can keep heat up in the engine causing failure, ... but common sense also tells me that messing with a cars stock setup is bound to make it less reliable and more prone to problems.
Do I leave the car stock and risk stuff like the pre-cat+heat, AST cracking, ...? Or do I do the reliability mods and risk boost creep, air/fuel mix getting off, ... It sounds like unless I did a mid-pipe (which I dont plan on), neither of these should be an issue with just downpipe / air intake / cat back - but none the less, it is always brought up.
Some people say their stock engine is on 100,000+ miles and just swear by changing the oil and not driving it into the ground. Others say these reliability mods are a very good idea.
I would like to hear opinions from anyone who wrestled with this same decision
Given the history of these engines, what I am looking for is to keep it as long as possible. I have done lots of research both on this site and other RX7 sites and read Rob's "Reliability mods" page many times. While I dont mind doing it if it will in fact prolong the life of my engine, I am torn as to if I put the time and money into the "reliability mods" (downpipe, air intake, AST). I have read how the stock pre-cat can keep heat up in the engine causing failure, ... but common sense also tells me that messing with a cars stock setup is bound to make it less reliable and more prone to problems.
Do I leave the car stock and risk stuff like the pre-cat+heat, AST cracking, ...? Or do I do the reliability mods and risk boost creep, air/fuel mix getting off, ... It sounds like unless I did a mid-pipe (which I dont plan on), neither of these should be an issue with just downpipe / air intake / cat back - but none the less, it is always brought up.
Some people say their stock engine is on 100,000+ miles and just swear by changing the oil and not driving it into the ground. Others say these reliability mods are a very good idea.
I would like to hear opinions from anyone who wrestled with this same decision
01-20-12, 04:32 PM
#2
O wow. I'd do the reliability mods. This shouldn't even be a question. DO IT. Premix as well. Whatever you do, don't leave it stock. I'd also check on the recalls. I had the opportunity to drive a fully stock FD and it wasn't to much fun. Not being able to gauge water temps is the worst.
I'd also change the oil more frequently. 1500 mile intervals IMO is the best.
I'd also change the oil more frequently. 1500 mile intervals IMO is the best.
01-20-12, 04:41 PM
#3
Those reliability mods will not make it any less reliable....on the contrary. The pre-cat was installed to satisfy emissions on cold-start because it heats up really fast. It's also like keeping a broiler under you hood. Wait until this summer and you'll really see what we mean. A decent quality downpipe will remove the risk of the pre-cat collapsing and taking out the main cat (and worse-case scenario...your engine), reduce underhood heat to hoses and plastics (particularly the sequential system solenoids) and give you better performance and mileage. It will NOT cause boost creep as long as you keep the main cat. A down-pipe is a WIN WIN in my book.
Metal AST or if your **** about such things, get a new OEM one.
Regardless, I'd change out the coolant and ALL other fluids ASAP though. Hit it with some good quality fuel system cleaner too. With that few miles it's been sitting alot. Enjoy the car. Sounds like a nice find.
Metal AST or if your **** about such things, get a new OEM one.
Regardless, I'd change out the coolant and ALL other fluids ASAP though. Hit it with some good quality fuel system cleaner too. With that few miles it's been sitting alot. Enjoy the car. Sounds like a nice find.
01-20-12, 04:55 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I checked and it did have the recalls done. I will start looking for the reliability mod parts (downpipe, AST, ...).
As for fluids,
I already got Neo 75W90HD for the tranny and Amsoil for the diff. I will do some research on what coolant to use and get some of that as well. Since I wont be driving it for a couple months I have plenty of time to get that stuff in (it was -8 degrees F in Wisconsin this morning)
As for fluids,
I already got Neo 75W90HD for the tranny and Amsoil for the diff. I will do some research on what coolant to use and get some of that as well. Since I wont be driving it for a couple months I have plenty of time to get that stuff in (it was -8 degrees F in Wisconsin this morning)
01-20-12, 07:16 PM
#5
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I saw your pics in the other thread. You do already have an aftermarket AST so you can cross that off.
If someone rolled up with a bone stock FD that needed a good once-over to make it more reliable, here's what I'd do:
- Ceramic coated downpipe. The precat puts out a TON of heat, it cooks EVERYTHING under the hood and causes a lot of problems down the road. The downpipe helps, ceramic coating helps even more. I recommend the Jet-Hot 2000 coating. Stuff is BULLETPROOF.
- Boost and water temp gauge. Get GOOD gauges, don't get some Glowshift or Autometer garbage.
- FC fan thermoswitch. Search on it and about the fans, I have a big thread about fan control. If you get your fans running properly and keep the car running in the 80 deg. C range you'll have a VERY happy car.
- Maybe not immediately, but replace the stock check valves with Viton check valves and replace the vacuum lines for the check valves with silicone. Also replace the vacuum line to the MAP sensor with silicone. Leave all the other lines be, replace them if they get loose, pop off, are hard, whatever. Ones that are ON there, just leave them be.
- Flush and fill your coolant. I recommend 50/50 mix of distilled water and good ol green Prestone. Change your coolant once a year.
- Fresh set of plugs and maybe do some new wires while you're in there. The stock NGK wires fit great, work great, and are cheap.
- Make sure you have GOOD tires on the car. So many FD's have cheap *** tires. Cheap tires don't grip, and no grip means FD in the ditch. Don't go cheap there. If you have OLD dry rotted tires, replace them SOON.
Keep around 10psi, keep water temps happy, you'll have a long happy engine life.
Dale
If someone rolled up with a bone stock FD that needed a good once-over to make it more reliable, here's what I'd do:
- Ceramic coated downpipe. The precat puts out a TON of heat, it cooks EVERYTHING under the hood and causes a lot of problems down the road. The downpipe helps, ceramic coating helps even more. I recommend the Jet-Hot 2000 coating. Stuff is BULLETPROOF.
- Boost and water temp gauge. Get GOOD gauges, don't get some Glowshift or Autometer garbage.
- FC fan thermoswitch. Search on it and about the fans, I have a big thread about fan control. If you get your fans running properly and keep the car running in the 80 deg. C range you'll have a VERY happy car.
- Maybe not immediately, but replace the stock check valves with Viton check valves and replace the vacuum lines for the check valves with silicone. Also replace the vacuum line to the MAP sensor with silicone. Leave all the other lines be, replace them if they get loose, pop off, are hard, whatever. Ones that are ON there, just leave them be.
- Flush and fill your coolant. I recommend 50/50 mix of distilled water and good ol green Prestone. Change your coolant once a year.
- Fresh set of plugs and maybe do some new wires while you're in there. The stock NGK wires fit great, work great, and are cheap.
- Make sure you have GOOD tires on the car. So many FD's have cheap *** tires. Cheap tires don't grip, and no grip means FD in the ditch. Don't go cheap there. If you have OLD dry rotted tires, replace them SOON.
Keep around 10psi, keep water temps happy, you'll have a long happy engine life.
Dale
01-20-12, 07:46 PM
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I saw your pics in the other thread. You do already have an aftermarket AST so you can cross that off.
If someone rolled up with a bone stock FD that needed a good once-over to make it more reliable, here's what I'd do:
- Ceramic coated downpipe. The precat puts out a TON of heat, it cooks EVERYTHING under the hood and causes a lot of problems down the road. The downpipe helps, ceramic coating helps even more. I recommend the Jet-Hot 2000 coating. Stuff is BULLETPROOF.
- Boost and water temp gauge. Get GOOD gauges, don't get some Glowshift or Autometer garbage.
- FC fan thermoswitch. Search on it and about the fans, I have a big thread about fan control. If you get your fans running properly and keep the car running in the 80 deg. C range you'll have a VERY happy car.
- Maybe not immediately, but replace the stock check valves with Viton check valves and replace the vacuum lines for the check valves with silicone. Also replace the vacuum line to the MAP sensor with silicone. Leave all the other lines be, replace them if they get loose, pop off, are hard, whatever. Ones that are ON there, just leave them be.
- Flush and fill your coolant. I recommend 50/50 mix of distilled water and good ol green Prestone. Change your coolant once a year.
- Fresh set of plugs and maybe do some new wires while you're in there. The stock NGK wires fit great, work great, and are cheap.
- Make sure you have GOOD tires on the car. So many FD's have cheap *** tires. Cheap tires don't grip, and no grip means FD in the ditch. Don't go cheap there. If you have OLD dry rotted tires, replace them SOON.
Keep around 10psi, keep water temps happy, you'll have a long happy engine life.
Dale
If someone rolled up with a bone stock FD that needed a good once-over to make it more reliable, here's what I'd do:
- Ceramic coated downpipe. The precat puts out a TON of heat, it cooks EVERYTHING under the hood and causes a lot of problems down the road. The downpipe helps, ceramic coating helps even more. I recommend the Jet-Hot 2000 coating. Stuff is BULLETPROOF.
- Boost and water temp gauge. Get GOOD gauges, don't get some Glowshift or Autometer garbage.
- FC fan thermoswitch. Search on it and about the fans, I have a big thread about fan control. If you get your fans running properly and keep the car running in the 80 deg. C range you'll have a VERY happy car.
- Maybe not immediately, but replace the stock check valves with Viton check valves and replace the vacuum lines for the check valves with silicone. Also replace the vacuum line to the MAP sensor with silicone. Leave all the other lines be, replace them if they get loose, pop off, are hard, whatever. Ones that are ON there, just leave them be.
- Flush and fill your coolant. I recommend 50/50 mix of distilled water and good ol green Prestone. Change your coolant once a year.
- Fresh set of plugs and maybe do some new wires while you're in there. The stock NGK wires fit great, work great, and are cheap.
- Make sure you have GOOD tires on the car. So many FD's have cheap *** tires. Cheap tires don't grip, and no grip means FD in the ditch. Don't go cheap there. If you have OLD dry rotted tires, replace them SOON.
Keep around 10psi, keep water temps happy, you'll have a long happy engine life.
Dale
01-20-12, 10:49 PM
#7
With the exception of perhaps a downpipe and thermoswitch, don't touch it until something breaks. The reason why I say this is because your particular car seems to be in good shape and has been barely touched. Don't even go down that road, not yet, not when you are on the fence about modding it.
One thing leads to another which leads to another. If you like your interior don't go cutting up wires to permanently install gauges. When you pull those panels off they will never go back on the same. They will rattle and things will start cracking. The interior is designed to be lightweight, not durable. The interior is one of the biggest weaknesses of the car, IMO a bigger weakness than the motor. It may not seem that way... the motor seems so intimidating to people, but it's just another 90s engine. It combines a lot of emissions and turbo stuff found on a lot of other engines from that era.
You can't really fix the interior (I am excluding a few counterexample full custom jobs done here). The more you touch it, the worse it gets whereas the motor can be fixed if you know what you're doing.
You could buy an autometer boost gauge, cut the MAP sensor vacuum line and install it in-line with a T temporarily to check the boost, then cap off the T when done. If you aren't dropping boost majorly on the secondary turbo, leave it alone. When that manifold comes off you will have a big, big job ahead of you. It's not something to enter into lightly. When you "simpify things" one thing leads to another, you start having idle problems on stock ECU, then you jump to a Power FC or other computer which has its own set of quirks.
Water temp... stock gauge doesn't move until something like 230--just like almost every other car on the market, and they survive. AST has been changed so you're good there. If you do install a fan thermoswitch then you'll be fine on the cooling. Oil pressure--you won't look at it anyway. A/F--you could hook something up on a dyno if you're curious, but permanent install is unnecessary with this level of modification. This is going to be a little controversial of a statement, but on a stock car ignorance is bliss whereas on a modified one you need to keep an eye on everything regularly.
Pre-cat, well I suppose you could change that. But there's a chance everything will be rusted or majorly heat cycled--studs start breaking etc. Or not. It's hard to say. It's up to you. It's not much money, but with the stock precat you will for sure never have overboosting issues.
I would just drive it as-is and enjoy it for a while, making smart choices when you start having problems. Digging into the car brings its own set of issues. You should delay those as long as you can.
One thing leads to another which leads to another. If you like your interior don't go cutting up wires to permanently install gauges. When you pull those panels off they will never go back on the same. They will rattle and things will start cracking. The interior is designed to be lightweight, not durable. The interior is one of the biggest weaknesses of the car, IMO a bigger weakness than the motor. It may not seem that way... the motor seems so intimidating to people, but it's just another 90s engine. It combines a lot of emissions and turbo stuff found on a lot of other engines from that era.
You can't really fix the interior (I am excluding a few counterexample full custom jobs done here). The more you touch it, the worse it gets whereas the motor can be fixed if you know what you're doing.
You could buy an autometer boost gauge, cut the MAP sensor vacuum line and install it in-line with a T temporarily to check the boost, then cap off the T when done. If you aren't dropping boost majorly on the secondary turbo, leave it alone. When that manifold comes off you will have a big, big job ahead of you. It's not something to enter into lightly. When you "simpify things" one thing leads to another, you start having idle problems on stock ECU, then you jump to a Power FC or other computer which has its own set of quirks.
Water temp... stock gauge doesn't move until something like 230--just like almost every other car on the market, and they survive. AST has been changed so you're good there. If you do install a fan thermoswitch then you'll be fine on the cooling. Oil pressure--you won't look at it anyway. A/F--you could hook something up on a dyno if you're curious, but permanent install is unnecessary with this level of modification. This is going to be a little controversial of a statement, but on a stock car ignorance is bliss whereas on a modified one you need to keep an eye on everything regularly.
Pre-cat, well I suppose you could change that. But there's a chance everything will be rusted or majorly heat cycled--studs start breaking etc. Or not. It's hard to say. It's up to you. It's not much money, but with the stock precat you will for sure never have overboosting issues.
I would just drive it as-is and enjoy it for a while, making smart choices when you start having problems. Digging into the car brings its own set of issues. You should delay those as long as you can.
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01-21-12, 03:00 AM
#10
Strongly agree with the foregoing posts. The sky is not going to fall if you don't mod it.
I daily drove and beat the hell out of a stock FD for many years and it worked fine. Hell, I was only changing the oil at 7-->10k intervals (not recommended) and the motor & turbo's still lasted over 100k miles. All cars have their idiosyncrasies--I don't fully understand why peeps think you have to walk on eggshells with this car. In fact, it has been more reliable than most of the other [piston] vehicles I've owned.
01-21-12, 06:59 AM
#11
Another thought for a car that's been sitting that long.....clean the factory grounds, including the one on the exhaust just aft of the cat.
Technically I guess it's a mod, but I'd even consider adding an extra ground loup....engine to chassis, chassis to battery, battery to engine.
Technically I guess it's a mod, but I'd even consider adding an extra ground loup....engine to chassis, chassis to battery, battery to engine.
01-21-12, 11:25 AM
#12
engine ground wires, maybe remove bolt clean/sand andreinstall.
01-21-12, 08:20 PM
#15
Originally Posted by DaleClark
- Boost and water temp gauge. Get GOOD gauges, don't get some Glowshift or Autometer garbage.
Dale
In my own non-scientific testing, they seem pretty accurate.
Boost/Vac gauges I've owned agree with my Snap-On gauge (not cheap).
The electric water temp gauge seemed to jive with the datastream on an older Camaro I was working on, 182 @ ECU 180 on the gauge.
I never checked my electric oil pressure gauge since it registered similarly to the stock gauge, meaning a number higher than zero
I value your opinion and hope you will enlighten me. I've always bought them, because they do look nice, are made in the USA, AND NASCAR uses them (has to be good, right?).
Vince
01-22-12, 09:27 AM
#16
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Strongly agree with the foregoing posts. The sky is not going to fall if you don't mod it.
I daily drove and beat the hell out of a stock FD for many years and it worked fine. Hell, I was only changing the oil at 7-->10k intervals (not recommended) and the motor & turbo's still lasted over 100k miles. All cars have their idiosyncrasies--I don't fully understand why peeps think you have to walk on eggshells with this car. In fact, it has been more reliable than most of the other [piston] vehicles I've owned.
I daily drove and beat the hell out of a stock FD for many years and it worked fine. Hell, I was only changing the oil at 7-->10k intervals (not recommended) and the motor & turbo's still lasted over 100k miles. All cars have their idiosyncrasies--I don't fully understand why peeps think you have to walk on eggshells with this car. In fact, it has been more reliable than most of the other [piston] vehicles I've owned.
The very 1st thing a bone stock FD needs is a PFC with commander. Fixes countless issues along with getting much better gas mileage (probably pay for itself in 10 to 15,000 miles of driving) and adds a boost gauge and water temp gauge.
Flush coolant unless it was done recently
Change all fluids unless done recently
Check the belts
The rest don't fix unless they are broken. That stock precat has a massive heat shield on it and it's not going to heat up the engine bay anymore than a DP unless it's clugged and if it's clogged and then you will know because the boost will slowly rise and or drop. The precat has been on there for a long time so you may break a stud off removing it, then you have to pull the turbos etc..... The stock solenoid hoses are very good which is clear because they are still there and still working. Once you develop a boost leak that's caused by a bad hose replace them with the quality thick silicone hose.
I change my oil every 2k miles and filter every other change. The oil in these cars gets lots of gas in it which breaks it down so frequent changes are a good idea and just use the cheap stuff because there's no sense wasting money on good oil that needs frequent changing (castrol GTX 10w 30 or something comparable).
01-22-12, 09:47 AM
#17
Judging from the very limited pics on your other thread
Hire a professional detailer to give the car a nice cleaning inside and out.
As for reliability mods, I would wait.
Enjoy the car as it is. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Just change all fluids (coolant, engine, diff, tranny), spark plugs with BURE9s all around, air filter (the stock paper element.... garbage, get a K&N replacement), fuel filter, fuel pump sock.
Hire a professional detailer to give the car a nice cleaning inside and out.
As for reliability mods, I would wait.
Enjoy the car as it is. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Just change all fluids (coolant, engine, diff, tranny), spark plugs with BURE9s all around, air filter (the stock paper element.... garbage, get a K&N replacement), fuel filter, fuel pump sock.
01-22-12, 09:50 AM
#18
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Yep
The very 1st thing a bone stock FD needs is a PFC with commander. Fixes countless issues along with getting much better gas mileage (probably pay for itself in 10 to 15,000 miles of driving) and adds a boost gauge and water temp gauge.
Flush coolant unless it was done recently
Change all fluids unless done recently
Check the belts
The rest don't fix unless they are broken. That stock precat has a massive heat shield on it and it's not going to heat up the engine bay anymore than a DP unless it's clugged and if it's clogged and then you will know because the boost will slowly rise and or drop. The precat has been on there for a long time so you may break a stud off removing it, then you have to pull the turbos etc..... The stock solenoid hoses are very good which is clear because they are still there and still working. Once you develop a boost leak that's caused by a bad hose replace them with the quality thick silicone hose.
I change my oil every 2k miles and filter every other change. The oil in these cars gets lots of gas in it which breaks it down so frequent changes are a good idea and just use the cheap stuff because there's no sense wasting money on good oil that needs frequent changing (castrol GTX 10w 30 or something comparable).
The very 1st thing a bone stock FD needs is a PFC with commander. Fixes countless issues along with getting much better gas mileage (probably pay for itself in 10 to 15,000 miles of driving) and adds a boost gauge and water temp gauge.
Flush coolant unless it was done recently
Change all fluids unless done recently
Check the belts
The rest don't fix unless they are broken. That stock precat has a massive heat shield on it and it's not going to heat up the engine bay anymore than a DP unless it's clugged and if it's clogged and then you will know because the boost will slowly rise and or drop. The precat has been on there for a long time so you may break a stud off removing it, then you have to pull the turbos etc..... The stock solenoid hoses are very good which is clear because they are still there and still working. Once you develop a boost leak that's caused by a bad hose replace them with the quality thick silicone hose.
I change my oil every 2k miles and filter every other change. The oil in these cars gets lots of gas in it which breaks it down so frequent changes are a good idea and just use the cheap stuff because there's no sense wasting money on good oil that needs frequent changing (castrol GTX 10w 30 or something comparable).
. There should also be a MUST have guide for upgrades! The “three mod” rule is too complicated for some people
!
01-22-12, 09:59 AM
#19
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Judging from the very limited pics on your other thread
Hire a professional detailer to give the car a nice cleaning inside and out.
As for reliability mods, I would wait.
Enjoy the car as it is. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Just change all fluids (coolant, engine, diff, tranny), spark plugs with BURE9s all around, air filter (the stock paper element.... garbage, get a K&N replacement), fuel filter, fuel pump sock.
Hire a professional detailer to give the car a nice cleaning inside and out.
As for reliability mods, I would wait.
Enjoy the car as it is. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Just change all fluids (coolant, engine, diff, tranny), spark plugs with BURE9s all around, air filter (the stock paper element.... garbage, get a K&N replacement), fuel filter, fuel pump sock.
Absolute must is to be sure the fuel filter was changed in the last 5 years or so. It should have a date on it. If not change that 1st thing. Lots of motors lost from running lean because of a clogged fuel filter.
Also speaking of fuel, if the car wasn't garaged all the rubber seals in the fuel system have likely been compromised similar to dry rotting tires and a bad FPD (fuel pulsation dampener) can leak fuel and cause a fire along with bad injector 0-rings etc.... So if you smell any fuel at all in the engine bay I'd replace everything fuel related that's made of rubber.
01-29-12, 10:52 PM
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This is a great thread...some really top guys (IMO) on this forum that really are saying basically, do a coolant flush, the FC thermo switch and a DP and call it good....kind of a nice change of pace to read. I just bought a 1994 FD with 150k on the car, 17k on a Mazda reman and new OEM turbos. The car is BONE stock and runs perfect. The exterior/interior of the car would literally pass for 25k miles, not 150k. I am going to do an oil change, tranny, diff, pillow *****, DP, coolant, FC switch and the fuel filter and enjoy the car!
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