ArchangelX

Reason for this is, this was prompted as a possible solution to my current engine problems.

My RX-7 has about 5000 miles on a brand new Pineapple Racing engine, and was rebuilt in the Feb-May 03 timeframe. The entire engine bay was pretty much redone as far as oil-metering lines, silicone hose job, new sensors, bla bla...the injectors were cleaned, flowed and spec'd out. Turbojeff did a great job shoe-horning the engine, tranny, and misc. bits back in, and the car was immediately dyno'd by Ralph at GroundZero Motorsports in Oregon. This is where pretty much all the work on the car stopped.

Due to a PCS move, and an ensuing hospital accident that rendered me immobile for several months, and unable to drive for amost 9 months, the car did not see much use or action. I shipped the car in May 03, and it arrived on Aug 22, 03. The same day I was to pick it up, I went into the hospital for an emergency appendectomy. On that same day, I lost nearly all of the muscle beneath my right knee because a military doctor accidentally slipped and sliced my external iliac artery and vein in half, and the resulting compartment syndrome pretty much screwed me up. But that's beside the point. The car didn't see hardly anymore use until being shipped to hawaii in May 04, finally arriving in July.

Now, during this time, almost immediately after the rebuild (and everything done in my sig), I experienced problems with warm starts, flooding, rough-jumpy idle, and lots of backfiring. I posted once, where the car died on me pulling into Home Depot, and ended up being majorly flooded. I almost couldn't get it started it again, and it took awhile to sort out as most of you know. Due to the circumstances, I really didn't have the ability to further diagnose what was going on, suffice to say, I was kinda busy rehabbing, moving, and pulling my life back together. So...I get to Hawaii, I finally get the car, and was experiencing the warm start problems where I'd have to hold the accelerator just to get the car started. Other than that, everything seemed hunky-dory. Till I took it for a hard run after a Drift Session event, just for kicks...

The car flat out lost power a few minutes into the run...idle went to crap, and the car started backfiring. Water temp was hovering around 180-190 during the run, no serious knock on the PFC, and boost never went above 10PSI. The car was pulled in, checked the car for coolant leaks, oil loss, pretty much all the fluids, bla bla, but didn't see anything amiss. All the vacuum hoses were on tight, the map sensor was good, etc. We happened to shut the car down before checking this by the way. Tried starting the car up again, and the car sounded like it was going to start...and then just went whhhhh...and died. Pretty much similar to the warm start problems, except much worse....it wouldn't start even with the accelerator fully depressed. The only way we could get it started, was by doing a 2nd-gear rolling start with some help from the guys.

After it finally kicked in, I noticed the engine still sounded quite smooth at the upper rev ranges, but seemed to have a loss of power down-low. While accelerating, the boost gauge isn't linear and smooth as it used to be. Instead...it jumps from -20 to -10 to 5 to 10...very jumpy, and the exhaust emits a burbling noise as you accelerate. Lots of backfires as well...and like I said, a loss of power. No smoke...no weird stuff coming outta the exhaust. I also did the champagne bubble test with no ill effects.

I limped it home, and occasionally, the revs would drop, and the engine would cut out on me when idling. This was pretty bad on the way home. I let the car sit for about two weeks while I read up on what was causing it, and asked friends for help. After sitting for awhile, that idling-dying problem didn't seem as prevalent...in fact, upon driving it to the tuning shop, I didn't have it die out on me once, and idled around 800rpms very nicely, except with a bit of engine shake as before. Still had the perceived loss of power. I tried to do a compression test after borrowing a gauge, but due to the fact that I don't have jack squat for tools, I was only able to get the rear trailing plug out, and do a test on it. I didn't have a ramp, jack or jack-stands, only one plug socket, and a shitty-azz short ratchet. I just couldn't get enough leverage to get the front trailing plug out, even after spending about three hours and a can of WD40 on it. I gave up with frustration.

I ended up getting 80PSI in three smooth, even movements from the gauge from a mildly warm engine. This is on a mildly-streetported motor. I then called Rob from Pineapple, told him what happened, and he said the most important thing is to check compression, and to make sure I check the front rotor specifically, because it will be hit the hardest if something went wrong. He said that 80PSI on a rebuilt motor that has been streetported isn't that bad.

I would try and diagnose this myself, but I don't have jack squat for tools, and I'm still an utter newbie at this game, and it's my daily driver, and I just don't have the tools or patience right now to screw with it. So I took the car to a tuner shop that has a pretty sweet FD, and asked them to give it a once over. The gentleman spent about an hour and a half with it, and after checking it out, came back and said "I don't think the engine is blown...but more likely that it's a flooding problem possibly having to due with the Injector O-Rings(or seals or something)". He said that because of the fact that the engine idles smoothly, but yet is hard to start, has a large amount of sputtering and backfires, and feels nice and smooth in the upper rev ranges, he doesn't think the engine has had any damage, but if so, it's not the main culprit. He feels that once he rips off the UIM and takes a look into doing some more diagnostic checks, that he'll know for sure.

Only problem was that there's a huge tuning show coming up, so he couldn't really put that much time into the car...he set up a time after the show for me to bring it back and we can dig into it a bit more. He didn't do a compression check either, but he promised to due one on the 3rd when I bring it back in.

My question is....does this sound like a possible solution? I'm REALLY hoping that my engine isn't toast, because I've shelled out a TON of cash on this car, just to try and bring it up to the point where I can drive it with a little confidence. I got a great guy to put it together for me, I was safe and careful with the car, didn't rag on it at all, and I got a reputable tuner to setup the PFC for me.

Soooo...does a bad injector O-ring sound like it could be the culprit? Thanks for your help, guys.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I don't think a bad injector O-ring would cause these symptoms. It could be a problem with leaky injectors.

For the sputtering and backfiring, make sure the fuel thermosensor isn't disconnected or swapped with the water thermosensor as they look identical and are very close to each other on the engine.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

If the lower injector O-ring is bad or torn, you'll be shooting pressurized fuel straight into the engine. Car very likely would not start AT ALL, and you'd have tons of fuel smell. Leaks like that typically don't come and go - it's either bad or it isn't.

I'd get a good compression test going. Go down to the parts store and blow $10 in tools - you need very little to do the test, especially since it seems like you have (or have access to) a compression gauge. Ratchet, spark plug socket, short extension, 10mm socket - that's all you need. Remove the elbow and go to work. Rule out any problems with the engine before you chase your tail with the rest of the system.

Might also be a problem with the coils - leading coil might be cutting out. If you run on just trailings, the car runs VERY badly and is VERY hard to start. Also I'd maybe throw a fresh set of plugs in - fouled plugs can also do funky stuff.

Good luck!
Dale

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

Hey Mike what did you get on the front rotor for compression I know you did the rear and got 80 How bout the front? Didi you get the plugs unstuck?

I hate to repeat it but I think we are trying to deny the truth And may till august for shipping? Who the hell did you use? It only takes 3 weeks max with Matson. Our military being as effiecient as possible I guess huh?

PM me you mailing address and i will send you that ECU like we talked about. Even though i am cofident that is not the issue. I think it is apex seals. There semms to be a virus going thru the rotaries out here. I need 4 more engines from Ray and then there is you and Todd over there. Shhesh! all apex seals on the front rotors except one coolant seal

As far as testing it goes try to get some carb spray or cleaner and sprayit around the injectors. If the are leaking it will go up in RPM.

The reason i don't think it is the injector o-ring is those usually don't just "go bad" They are usually installed incorrectly and cause a problem from the beginning.

You didn't go to Hypersports did you !! watch out for them!! Bad stories around the islands.. Split my plane ticket and I'll hopp over there j/k

ArchangelX

Yah, Dave...I went to Hypersports. My wife really got on my azz about us having to keep borrowing her relatives cars, and I really got frustrated because my leg has been hurting like a biatch. It's one of the reasons I gave up on the socket, because I have to stretch to get my arm down in there, and have to be on my tip-toes to reach in. That sends neuropathic spasms flying up and down the right side of my body. I can't do it for long. So I just decided to see what they'd think about. I wanted an opinion from someone that's screwed around with them at least a little bit. They seem to have a nice FD in there...but hell man...what else could I do?

There is a bright light at the end of the tunnel, I should be moving into my new place soon, and if so, I won't catch any crap about ripping apart the car in the driveway. I got yelled at by the home managers where I'm currently staying with friends when I tried to do the compression test, because I was doing it in the street (only place with freakin' parking). Plus, I'll finally have all my tools, ramps, jacks, bla bla...AND I'll be living in the same apartments as my wife's family does, so I'll have a spare ride whenever I need it.

I did do the carb test while I was in the UK, but never had any leaks of any sort as far as I could tell.

If it were the Apex Seals, then why would the car idle correctly some days, and some days not? The idle was horrible the day the car was run hard, but since running it again, like yesterday, the idle is nice and smooth. I don't get it.

I wanted a real compression test, too....but dammit, NO dealers carry the mazda factory compression tool....so the little, chunky gauge is the only thing they have. Grrr....

ArchangelX

Oh...I also forgot to add...I'm getting EXTREMELY bad gas mileage...as in filling up the tank every two to three days with mild street use. I don't think that's a good thing...

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

I hear ya about hypersports. I guess they can't mess up a compression test that much

As far as idle being OK now, When my seal went out it would idle fine for a while then just shut off like i turned the key off. Restart and it is lumpy and smokes like a mosquito fogger. Get home turn it off, restart it and it idled fine. No lumpy cam sound! Or smoke

The T2 i have here with the front rotor seals gne would idle and run strong between one stop light, Then try to get going again from the stop, and you'll be lucky not to fry the clutch to get it to move. Idle is a joke! Turn it off tested compression 15,15,25 on the faces. Started back up and it was lumpy but better.

The LIM o-ring was leaking coolant into the intake runner. This coolant mixed with the oil from the injector and the intake air and fuel mix ,..created a brownish black sludge in the front intake runner. This "sludge" acted like a grease when i did a compression test prior to replacing the LIM gasket and coolant o_ring. Once those were replaced and not leaking. I cleaned out all the sludge. Flooded the engine to flush outt the remaing crap and tested compression Got tthe above mentioned 15,15,25. where as before it was 75,75,75.
Sneaky bastards

Apex seals are strange beasts . Unless they really self destruct they will seal up sometimes and then act like crap the next. Pretty common symptom of seals being cracked but not chipped out and missing a piece.

When my seal finally released it's center section, the idle turned to Full crap all the time. If you have sprayed any grease or put ATF in the engine that will create compression that can give you a false sense of security. As long as the seals are still there and not chunked out.

ArchangelX

Ah, I see. Man, I feel really helpless...not being in my own house really limits me. I'm going to take her to the Auto Hobby Shop on Hickam today, and see what I can get done. They have lifts, there...so it'll be easier for me to get the plugs out without causing my leg to go spastic.

Only prob is I hope the car doesn't die on me when I stop to get a pass..hahah.

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

haha! Yep just keep it revved to 1500 or so. tell the gaurd it is the afterburner warming up

Again I am sorry bout not making it there last weekend. I am trying to get something set-up for a trip. That hobby shop sounds like a great place to work at. I hate the restrictions of property managers as well. Glad I have my own shop/garage to work in.

Just be carefull driving it around. Try not to boost to often If it IS the seal(s) you don't want to send any pieces thru the turbos. Or you'll be going single sooner than you think. Your turbo too

That's what happened to mine. I just said fuc it and railed on the thing all over. I payed for that!!litteraly!

ArchangelX

Kayz...welps...wish me luck, I'm heading to Hickam now...The revs have been treating me good, I hope it stays that way.

ArchangelX

Just got back...

I took the car to the Hickam Auto Skills Center, and I'm happy I did, because they had every tool known to man, and although it took 2-1/2 hours on a lift, it only came up to 12 bucks. I had a biatch of a time trying to get the compression tube screwed in, because the damn thing is a foot long, doesn't flex hardly at all, and I ended up having to start it barely, and then use pliers to screw the sucker in. That ticked me off...I couldn't find a compression gauge with a 90-degree elbow, either. That sucked, and it's what really set me back.

Anyways, after I put it on the lift, I found out what the horrible clanging, rattling sound was. One of the bolts on the cover that fits over the transmission had come off, and that metal pan was vibrating like hell. Fixed that, and my car sounded noticeably smoother, and less rackety. Much, much better...I guess that's what was making the horrible noise.

So...after screwing around with the compression gauge, I got the following on the front and rear rotor...this is using a basic crappy azz PSI compression gauge.

Front: 60-65 PSI with three slightly smooth pulses.
Rear: 80 PSI with three smooth pulses.

The thing was definetly well lubricated, 'cuz I had to clean the attachment slightly from the oil that had collected, not alot, but enough to know that it was circulating. I cried a little, bit, got a few hugs, and a few manly "It'll be alright" taps on the back from the peeps at the shop, and then threw everything together. After starting it, the car idled fairly smoothly at 800-900rpms, and didn't die out on me once on the way home...still had a bit of the burbling during acceleration in the low revs, and that perceived loss of power. once I hit 3000rpms, it was all good though.

So...........dead engine, huh? What do you think could be the cause? I won't know until the engine is torn down, huh? I spent almost 12 grand, most of it on all the reliability mods, labor, and replacing every hose, every tube, every oil metering line, sensor, bla bla...and I got it tuned. I didn't beat on the thing. I thought I did everything right...and the car is toast already. What'd I do wrong? I guess I'm going to have to rip this thing apart in my driveway. I'm kinda scared, my wife is pissed off at me for spending so much damn money, and to have the car break-down within a year. I'm not sure if I can afford to have it done by a shop. Since I'm now retired outta the military, and don't have a job...jeezus..it's just a bad situation altogether. What f'ing luck....I'm pissed.

Should I rip it out and send it back to Pineapple to have them check it out? I wonder what shipping the motor will cost....and if they'll cover it under warranty. I had the full job done on it, the one that came with the 5 year/60k Warranty. I have all the receipts for all the parts I put in the car...what should I do?

bee

I think you need to do a little search on pinapple racing, you might not like what you find.

ArchangelX

Yah, I've been on the board for awhile...so I know pretty much what's been happening. It is very scary, but I'm not pointing fingers just yet. I want to diagnose the entire engine bay, check out what went wrong and why, and then determine the plan of action, rather than jumping to conclusions.

ArchangelX

Anyone have any suggestions on how I should handle dealing with this...as in...conversation. I don't want to go off half-cocked on someone, but I really won't want to be pushed around or BS'd. I'm really worried about this not being covered under warranty.

What's the chances you guys think of this being an actual problem with the engine?

I think that the compression check shows that it's EVEN wear & tear on the seals....if it was a fuel or ancillary problem that caused the damage to the engine, and the poor compression, wouldn't the engine give me something along the lines of 20, 40, 60 instead of 60 all across the board?

This was a rebuilt engine with 98k on the odo when it was removed from the car...what's the chances? Anyone get what I'm saying?

ArchangelX

Hasn't anyone had to deal with this situation before?

The RX

Hey so this is a serious back from the dead question, and to boot I've got a second generation S5 Savanna GT-X, but how did this all end up, sir? If you don't mind me asking?

Bimmer_Tyler

iTrader: (1)

I second this because I’m curious about how this panned out

Bimmer_Tyler

iTrader: (1)

Never mind dude hasn’t been on in years