Power Steering Removal - catching up on writeups part 3
12-25-05, 10:53 PM
#17
Originally Posted by twokrx7
The Flying Miata conversion looks to be just a looped system.
12-26-05, 11:41 AM
#19
mono4lamar, according to jimlab, the Maval conversion is basically the same as the procedure outlined by the guys from Flying Miata. See post # 47 from this thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/powersteering-removal-kit-428946/
-s-
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/powersteering-removal-kit-428946/
-s-
12-27-05, 12:33 AM
#22
Damian, you mentioned that you wouldn't install a manual rack in your street car. Would you recommend it for a car that sees double-duty as a track car, with average corner speeds 50+mph? How about a car that sees a lot of autocross racing, with average corner speeds between 25-50mph?
Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
-s-
Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
-s-
12-27-05, 01:14 AM
#23
>>Damian, you mentioned that you wouldn't install a manual rack in your street car. Would you recommend it for a car that sees double-duty as a track car, with average corner speeds 50+mph? How about a car that sees a lot of autocross racing, with average corner speeds between 25-50mph?
My first reaction would be yes, I would do it, ....if its going to see open road tracks.
...However.... if its mainly autocross then I am not sure, autocross is way more wheel sawing than road track driving.... keeping the powersteering may help in that situation. In other words the gain of road feel in the franticness of autocross driving may not outweight the ability to steer easily, thus being better to keep the power steering.
>>Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
My friend Andy's car (gooroo) has the looped rack and I have driven it, and have driven my 95 with no ps belt. To me they we very similar, harder to steer and a little bit of raod feel gain ...but nothing compared to what you get with the 'hard' conversion.
For example, with PS, the steering wheel doesnt move at all when you hit slight bump, small rocks, or road imperfections....it buffers all that and makes it 'nice' to drive. When you remove the PS, that buffer is gone, so you can feel the wheel pull when the tires hit these things. With the loop or belt removed, the hydrolics still buffers some of that, when you go with a hard conversion, it is no longer hydrolic....its just mechanical ....so you feel every little pull/push/bump on the tires tansmitted to the steering wheel....that is the feel you get with only the hard conversion... and most people get that confused with the simultanious effect that you also get from removing the ps, the fact that its harder to steer... that dosnt readily mean better road feel to me,.... just means its harder to steer LOL
My first reaction would be yes, I would do it, ....if its going to see open road tracks.
...However.... if its mainly autocross then I am not sure, autocross is way more wheel sawing than road track driving.... keeping the powersteering may help in that situation. In other words the gain of road feel in the franticness of autocross driving may not outweight the ability to steer easily, thus being better to keep the power steering.
>>Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
My friend Andy's car (gooroo) has the looped rack and I have driven it, and have driven my 95 with no ps belt. To me they we very similar, harder to steer and a little bit of raod feel gain ...but nothing compared to what you get with the 'hard' conversion.
For example, with PS, the steering wheel doesnt move at all when you hit slight bump, small rocks, or road imperfections....it buffers all that and makes it 'nice' to drive. When you remove the PS, that buffer is gone, so you can feel the wheel pull when the tires hit these things. With the loop or belt removed, the hydrolics still buffers some of that, when you go with a hard conversion, it is no longer hydrolic....its just mechanical ....so you feel every little pull/push/bump on the tires tansmitted to the steering wheel....that is the feel you get with only the hard conversion... and most people get that confused with the simultanious effect that you also get from removing the ps, the fact that its harder to steer... that dosnt readily mean better road feel to me,.... just means its harder to steer LOL
Last edited by damian; 12-27-05 at 01:19 AM.
12-27-05, 01:20 AM
#24
Damian, I've felt true manual steering in an FSAE racecar. It's very, very nice.
So would you say the effort is about the same for the looped line as for the full conversion? For $30 in parts, I might try one of those for an autocross or two before modifying my rack. I drove a friend's car that had removed the pulley, and the steering wasn't too bad. I've got to get him out to an autocross sometime.
-s-
So would you say the effort is about the same for the looped line as for the full conversion? For $30 in parts, I might try one of those for an autocross or two before modifying my rack. I drove a friend's car that had removed the pulley, and the steering wasn't too bad. I've got to get him out to an autocross sometime.
-s-
Last edited by scotty305; 12-27-05 at 01:23 AM.
12-27-05, 01:51 AM
#26
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Hello-
Ya know, there is a way to DIY your own "cheap bastard full manual" conversion. There are basically two steps:
1. Make the attachment of the input shaft rigid to the pinion shaft. There's a "flexbile link" here, which is used as a "torque sensor" for power steering. If you pull the rack apart, these parts will be pretty obvious... get a good welder to weld them together and you're done.
2. Open up the hydraulic pistons. The simplest way is to put little breather caps on the fittings to each side of the stock piston - that's two $1 parts from McMaster-Carr. Make sure you drain them of power steering fluid first :-).
Take care,
Shad
Ya know, there is a way to DIY your own "cheap bastard full manual" conversion. There are basically two steps:
1. Make the attachment of the input shaft rigid to the pinion shaft. There's a "flexbile link" here, which is used as a "torque sensor" for power steering. If you pull the rack apart, these parts will be pretty obvious... get a good welder to weld them together and you're done.
2. Open up the hydraulic pistons. The simplest way is to put little breather caps on the fittings to each side of the stock piston - that's two $1 parts from McMaster-Carr. Make sure you drain them of power steering fluid first :-).
Take care,
Shad
12-27-05, 12:21 PM
#28
Originally Posted by damian
...
>>Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
My friend Andy's car (gooroo) has the looped rack and I have driven it, and have driven my 95 with no ps belt. To me they we very similar, harder to steer and a little bit of raod feel gain ...but nothing compared to what you get with the 'hard' conversion.
...
>>Have you driven a car with a looped rack also? How did it compare to the full conversion?
My friend Andy's car (gooroo) has the looped rack and I have driven it, and have driven my 95 with no ps belt. To me they we very similar, harder to steer and a little bit of raod feel gain ...but nothing compared to what you get with the 'hard' conversion.
...
At one point trying to take the P/S pulley off I blew it up. So for a period of a couple weeks while I got another pulley I ran without the A/C and P/S belt.
To me that was the worst of all. I couldn't feel the road because I was being buffered by the pump, and it was harder to turn then wheel because not only was there was no pump pressure helping me, I was having to push against it. It was not a good experience. I got a pulley back on there ASAP. At least in the normal P/S system it's easy to turn the wheel, even if you lose some feel.
Because of that experience I was hesitant to go to the looped line on my car. Howard convinced me that I had the worst possible experience with the belt deal and that I should try the loop line anyway.
Comparing the belt removal to what I have now with the loop line and there really isn't any similarities. I have much better feel since the pump is gone, and it's easier to steer since I don't have to work against the pump. On the street below 5mph it is harder to turn, but on my street tires it's not brutal. Once I'm above 5mph it really isn't an issue for me.
Oh, I've also driven Damian's track car both on and off the track and I would concur that it is the best for track driving, but his huge tires make it worse than what I have on the street. However to this point it hasn't been worth the $ to me switch to have my rack fully converted.
To be more clear, if I have to rank them for track driving (1-10 scale):
No P/S belt - 1
Worse feel than normal (slightly) and very hard to turn wheel
Normal system: - 5
Reduced feel, but easy to turn wheel
Looped line - 8.5
Much better feel than normal, hard to turn wheel below 5mph
Complete Conversion - 10
Slightly better feel than Looped, hard to turn wheel below 5mph
12-27-05, 12:28 PM
#29
Originally Posted by scotty305
Damian, I've felt true manual steering in an FSAE racecar. It's very, very nice.
So would you say the effort is about the same for the looped line as for the full conversion? For $30 in parts, I might try one of those for an autocross or two before modifying my rack. I drove a friend's car that had removed the pulley, and the steering wasn't too bad. I've got to get him out to an autocross sometime.
-s-
So would you say the effort is about the same for the looped line as for the full conversion? For $30 in parts, I might try one of those for an autocross or two before modifying my rack. I drove a friend's car that had removed the pulley, and the steering wasn't too bad. I've got to get him out to an autocross sometime.
-s-
basically read Andys post above (gooroo), he does a very accurate description of it all...much better than mine :-)
12-27-05, 12:29 PM
#30
Originally Posted by artowar
Damian, how's the Maval steering effort with wide racing rubber?
but once you are moving at a good speed then its not that much effort, obvisouly more than with ps, but the bit more effort is well worth the added road feel....if you look at some of my videos you can see that in the middle of some of the turns the steering wheel will make small jitters, im not talking like big see-saw motion from me correctiing, im talking small blip one direction, very quickly....that is the road imperfections being transimited to the wheel...i love it. :-)
Last edited by damian; 12-27-05 at 12:33 PM.