Well we got a date with XS engineering on the 29th Dec to tune my HOPEFULLY mid to high 300 HP car. They told me however that I need to take care of a few reliability issues before I come in. He said get HKS plugs as his tuners might decide not to work on your car without that. He also said if I had stock ignition system or havent had a recent oil change the tuners will refuse to work on it until that is all taken care of. So my question is what kind of ignition system do I need to run? I will post an immediate reply after I start this thread so you can see mods. And why would the require ONLY HKS plugs? Are they that much better?

 

mods below

 

personally i wouldn't have my car tuned unless they could accept the way it is. i could understand if there was a mechanical issue. hks plugs are too expensive to justify using them just for one tune, or to keep using them. hks twin-fire (?) ignition amp is the most common ignition upgrade. i say if they won't tune it without that stuff, then go elsewhere. that's around $600 in mods just so you can spend even more money in tuning

 

That is because they do not want to blow your engine. I do not know about the plugs, but I know you need the HKS twin power. It will keep from breaking up in higher rpm and high psi. If it breaks up, say buh bye to your engine. Oil change is always good, do not want to get crappy oil on your rotors and turbos.

 

Uhmm...please explain how not supplying enough spark can blow your motor....

You don't NEED an upgraded ignition running with the stock twins. I know many people that have been running all the bolt-ons at 13+ psi for quite a while with the stock ignition. Hell, I see a lot of single guys still running the stock ignition.

While I applaud XS's policy of making sure your car is running tip-top before tuning, I think it's bogus that they would require you to have an upgraded ignition and the HKS-only plugs is also ludicrous. It's things like that that make me want to never go there. Well, that and the fact that they mess with the PFC base maps so you can't tell what they did. No thanks.

 

Tell me how you will not blow your engine if you have ignition break up at higher rpm when running a higher boost. Yeah maybe some people can get away with not having any ignition break up at higher boost/rpm. But some cant, XS is protecting themselves, just in case someone blows.

He has the upgrade BNR stage 2's twins which can support 15 to 17psi efficiently.

 

Pulled from: http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/ignition.html

Just curious, would that constitute a breakup. I have just been told that if there is breakup, that it could cause detonation.

 

To be honest, you sound like you're just repeating something you heard and don't have a clue what you're saying. I'm not trying to insult you personally, everybody does that occasionally (myself included).

An upgraded ignition is supposed to provide a stronger spark to provide more complete combustion. If the spark is too weak, you won't get complete combustion. Tell me how that will blow your engine.

EDIT: breakup as I know it, is incomplete combustion. The post from Steve's site comes across as an MSD advertisement to me....

 

Read my post above your last post. I pulled this out from: http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/ignition.html. Well, I owned my Rx7 for a 8 months and still learning. I do keep a open mind and I do see your point of view. But I think breakup is more then just not firing, or at least from what I read on the website.

 

quote:
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As cars get more extremely modified as twin turbos to some degree and certainly with all single turbos, I believe there are real benefits from going with the MSD digital ignitions. (Crane and Jacobs are analog.) The reasons are that the rotary ignition trigger is an internal reluctor that fires off the falling signal from the ignition amp. If the analog sine wave signal is not crisp (for whatever reason and this happens), then the ignition may fire slightly before or after it should. This directly changes the timing and that will change the way the car runs, the horsepower it makes, and it may detonate, if it fires enough times before it should.
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I just wanted to point out that all MSD ignitions are not digital. The DIS 4 & 6 are the only ones. Any Crane ignition box is digital. Jacobs, I don't know about them. The Crane is alot nicer piece than a MSD. The way it is built is alot better, plus it is a few dollars cheaper.

Plus, when it has a weak ignition it will not detonate. Look at it as the same way as a rev limiter. It cuts out spark, therefore fuel is still there.

 

I have been hearing some stuff about XS that makes me double think about going there. But honestly, I spent $5000 in mods and want to take it to the best tuner around so I can enjoy every little last HP it will all give me. SO for the best is XS the way to go or is there someone better around Southern Cali?

 

give mark or reggie a call at TRIPOINT ENGINEERING bro. ull be happy u did!

 

i think you are realistic as to your hp expectations "mid to high 300s" given your mods... in my view you do not need any ignition mods to support that hp level. (obviously your oem ignition must be in good shape and you should be running the right ngk heat ranged plugs.) while i understand XS's interest in not blowing your motor on their dyno i think they are asking you for major overkill as to ignition upgrade. should they maintain that position i would look for another tuner.
howard coleman

 

i think he is confusing ignition breakup for detonation and hesitation.......... you can get from three causes.........rich.........lean..........not enough spark

two out of those 3 are ok and won't blow your engine

 

i got 351 on stock ignition...stock turbos...

 

XS is just like that.... they know they are the only ones in the area authorized to work on the PFC, so they milk every last bit of that privilege. Back when I called them a year ago, they wanted $75 for a diagnostic & $45 just to strap the car on the dyno.
Any work done, along with the dyno-tuning, cost $150/hr. Several people I know have left that place $1-2k poorer.

 

You do not need the overpriced HKS plugs. Get four
NGK B9EGVs which require a normal but thin wall plug socket. About $5.35 for each plug. This is one of the most widely used plug types (BnEDV) in hot rotories.

Misfires caused by poor plugs and ignition cause AFRs to richen up. If they tune your fuel for this and later you fix your ignition problem, AFRs go lean and then BOOM!


http://www.monarchproductsinc.com/re...b9egv&x=28&y=6

 

I being hearing a lot of complaint of XS. mr g lord focker if you could get like 5 people together for a tuning session, you might be able to get Steve Kan to come and tune your car. He is very knowledgable about PFC.

 

abadr1...good idea. how would I get a hold of him to see availability times? If he is available when I need it tuned I will then post it on the WEST forum and just try and work that out. Please shoot more info my way on that. or PM me

 

xs did a great job with my car....my car has stock ignition and they tuned it fine. I did get the plugs they wanted though.

there is not a better group of pfc tuners for the rx anywhere in so cal.

tripoint aint cheap either.

xs doesnt want to waste time tuning your car if **** is broken and such. get the car ready to tune..then take it there. rotary reliability and racing did great work on my car and then it went off to xs for finishing. the work they did made the car feel night and day different in all the best ways. I got what I paid for.


j

 

Awesome information to know!!!

 

Thats not unreasonable. Dyno time costs money. When Steve Kan tuned my car it turned out to be just about $150/hr for the tuning. Seems like the going rate if you ask me.

 

But how much of a change in the AFR are we talking here? Not with a single turbo running 20 psi but the stock twins at 15 psi. Maybe a couple tenths?

IMO, if you are tuned such that adding an ignition blows your engine, you are tuned WAY too aggressively. Unless I'm wrong and a better ignition creates a significantly leaner AFR.

 

Called tri-Point and was told I need the AEM comp system to tune there. I am just going to buy the HKS igniton off eBay and get those NGK plugs at $5.50 a piece! Then I'll just go to XS and pay $150 an hour because when I get back I will have a bad *** ride that should last me while. I'll keep you posted on the prudeness of XS engineering but hopefully with their top-quality work at the end it will make it all worth while. Upgrades= $5000 Car= $10,5000 Tuning = $150/hr Reliability= PRICELESS

 

Yep, Tri-Point made the switch.