BREWmaster

I am considering removing my power steering... i already have my 13B pulled form the car, and i am debating on rather or not to remove the power steering.... Any input ouwld be appreciated!
Thanx!
KB

jdhuegel1

Get a manual rack from a FC if you are going to do it... That way you remove all the useless jumbo you have attached to the rack as well.. You can get them for like 75 bucks.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Even if you don't get an FC rack you can pull most of the BS stuff, pump, lines, brackets, etc...
Makes for a much cleaner engine bay and much better steering response.

jimlab

I wouldn't recommend the FC rack. The '86-'87 manual racks have a ratio of 20.3:1 or 3.5 turns lock to lock. The FD power rack has a ratio of 15.0:1, or 2.9 turns lock to lock. You would be losing some quickness of response if you made the swap, and it's not a direct bolt-up conversion. You will also have to swap the tie rods from the FD to the FC rack.

I briefly considered an FC rack for my car. Then I was looking at Thunder River and Maval Gear aftermarket racks, but none offered the ratio of the FD rack. Maval Gear then solved my problem for me by letting me know that they'll convert an FD rack to full manual operation for $165, and $60 for the core if you don't want to send in your own rack. Problem solved.

Previously, I had the hard lines still on my rack and was running a recirculation loop (shown below) to allow fluid to flow from one side to the other when the internal pistons of the rack move. The Maval Gear conversion eliminates the need for a recirculation loop as well as the hard lines.



Personally, I felt eliminating the power steering was one of the best things I ever did to my car. I never missed it and it eliminated the vagueness in road feel that power steering can contribute to. I know that Damon doesn't agree with me, but I'd never go back. If you want to try it risk free, simply remove the belt driving your A/C and P/S pumps temporarily.

The late Trev Dagley made a few pulleys which allowed keeping the A/C while eliminating the power steering, but I don't know that anyone else provides the same thing these days. I eliminate both at the same time, since my A/C never was very effective, even though the car was new. Trev and I also pioneered the recirculation loop mod, I believe, back in '97.

Here's the link to Maval Gear's site...
www.mavalgear.com

93BlackFD

running w/ no belt is not the same sensation as running with it closed off.....

jdhuegel1

Damn... Thanks for the info jim!

Shabib67

what are the advantages of not using power steering

jdhuegel1

Less crap under the hood.

People say you get a better "feel" for the road, but I have yet to drive a manual steering FD, so I couldn't tell ya..

Godzilla-T78

any guides on removing all that crap? I want to keep my rack.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

ditching the power steering is one of the single best fd mods. when mazda designed the fd they had 2 teams that worked for 10 months on one objective: removing weight. so they get the car down to under 3000 pounds and put power steering on????? no matter what anyone says about power steering you lose road feel. that'd be o k for a buick... manual steering: hello road. bonus, less front weight, bonus, less crap in the engine compartment and more cooling air. if you live above the mason dixon line junk your a-c while your at it. (don't forget to junk the condensor too, you know, that thing that sits in front of your radiator and obstructs all the airflow). bonus, you can change your plugs in a flash. as to the p/s removal mechanics... there are lots of options, as previously stated. i have been running manual steering for 4 years. i removed the pump and all lines. i plugged the lines at the steering box. i looped the 2 lines on the rack after turning the wheels back and forth to eject most of the fluid in the rack. drive your car w this mod for a week and then ask yourself if it would be an improvement to bolt on 30 pounds of stuff over your front wheels (where you want to remove weight), to clutter up the engine compartment so you can lose road feel. power steering turns one of the best road cars ever designed into the driving experience like a video game.
lose the power steering and say hello to roadfeel.
howard coleman

jgtcspec7

iTrader: (19)

I have a FD with the power steering gone and the loop in place. Since then I bought a FC and have a true manual rack . I will say that you get that road feel without p/s on the FD, but it's not the same. Seems like you get a little too much road feel with the converted FD. The FC feels much better. Here's the difference, going around a nice bend in the road at a good speed. When you hit a bump in the road the FD jerks and follows that bump and you have to fight the steering wheel to bring it back to the direction you are traveling. This happens so fast, that your like "cool road feel." But get in my FC and go around the same corner and the steering wheel stays planted. That is my experience. My cars are no way close to stock. 18's on the FD and 17's on the FC,coilovers on both. Look at any race car in Japan and you will see power steering on every one.

jimlab

That has nothing to do with your steering rack conversion, I'd bet.

Wider tires, and in some cases the tread pattern, may pull the steering in one direction or another when the road is rutted or bumpy. A poor alignment may also be the culprit. And finally, you may have worn bushings and/or ball joints that are allowing alignment to change and cause the car to veer out of line. There are many factors that could be causing what you describe, and I'm sorry, but just because you have coilovers and big wheels on your cars doesn't necessarily make you knowledgeable about your suspension.

jgtcspec7

iTrader: (19)

My 3rd gen has about half the miles of my second gen. So I doubt the bushing are in worse shape than my FC with 132,000 miles. They both have new wheels, new tires, new coilovers, they both have great alignments and wheels balanced on the car by the best place in town. They both handle like a dream in any situation.

I am just saying the FC factory manual rack feels better. It's only when I'm going around a long sweeping curve at speed, where the road isn't flat and has dips and bumps. The 3rd gen's steering wheel will move back and forth and follow the dips in the road (better road feel?), but the car maintains a strait line around the curve. The 2nd gen's steering wheel doesn't do this.

When I dropped the power steering from the 3rd gen I didn't have the 2nd gen to compare. So,Ithought it was fine, and it is. I just like the feel of the mazda designed manual rack in the FC better. Now,I feel I have degraded my FD and will soon be reinstalling the p/s.

Now,having the rack converted to full manual by Mavalgear would be the best route. But I am going to trust Mazda's engineer's and research and development team when it comes to the steering rack.

I didn't say I'm a suspension expert. I am just sharing my direct comparision of the subject.

clayne

Remove the P/S. It's not huge effort to drive the car with it off, nor is it even hard to park the car. I'm even running a smaller Mazdaspeed steering wheel too. Personally mine is just plugged. No loops, or any of the original piping.

Power steering and A/C:

rx7raca

good info jgtcspec7,
i took the p/s out of my fc as well, feels awsome. but i dont think i will in my fd. the fd feels really good with it.

one thing i am doing though, is taking out the stupid a/c, those a/c lines running across the engine bay are so amazing annoying. as long as my windows work, im good.

jimlab

I guess we'd better trust them on putting the pre-cat in the engine bay and the miles of brittle rubber vacuum hoses required for the sequential turbo control system too while we're at it.

You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but the engineering team responsible for the FD isn't entirely innocent of committing their fair share of ****-ups.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am really enjoying this thread. as already posted, i despise power steering on the fd. and i couldn't agree more with Jim Lab as to the hunting problem posted earlier. i'll bet the problem is anything but the manual steering conversion. what's the front spring rate on your coil-overs? anything more than 550 is too much front spring. secondly where is your front shock setting? too stiff shocks will cause exactly the condition you describe. tire pressure cold shud be about 29 pounds. finally, the most common culprit would be toe setting. toe-in shud be just less than an 1/8th inch. as to comparing the fc and fd... they should both run well on the street but on the track the fc suffers as it has a strut front and therefore has no camber gain during corners. ie, 4 degree body roll creates 4 degree positive camber on the outside wheel. the fd has negative camber gain that sets the front wheel properly. that all said, it is a big world out there and we can't all be divorced from the same woman and if someone loves power steering he is welcome at my table. oh, and i just LOVED the picture of the power steering and a-c sitting in the JUNKBOX.
rock on,
howard coleman

jimlab

If you liked that Howard, you should love this picture of all the crap we pulled off my car 3 months after I bought it...

clayne

You mean I don't have to jack my car up or remove part of the manifold just to replace spark plugs?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

less is more w the exception of HP. jim lab's pic would be good wallpaper. thanx for sharing.
howard coleman

DamonB

As Jim stated IMO I think the FD power steering is just fine and I spend lots of time with race rubber on the car. Certainly the levels of feedback are smaller than if the car had no p/s, but I have no trouble sensing what the front tires are doing. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I don't share the opinion that removing p/s or a/c to simplify under the hood is good; I much prefer having p/s and a/c!.

Related to the FC rack though: Anybody know if the steering geometry is the same on the FC and FD? It wouldn't suprise me at all to find out the FD has less "leverage" at the uprights due to the fact it was designed with power steering. Anybody know the geometry differences between FC and FD?


Jim that pic is classic! I can't believe I have never seen it!

jimlab

Just another golden oldy from the archives.

These were taken during the summer of '97 (I bought my car new in April) when I converted to full non-sequential and all the usual mods and subsequently voided my warranty at about 4,100 miles. Trev thought it would be funny if we laid out all the parts we'd pulled off the car that weren't going back on in relation to where they'd come from. The exception is the mess of worms on the right, which is what was eliminated from my "rat's nest" by the non-sequential conversion.

tubbinator

I just removed my a/c, ps, fog lights, and cruise yesterday.

The cruise and fog lights are no-brainers, anyone can do it.

The a/c and ps was a little tougher but I figured it all out as I went along. Just trace the various lines. I was able to get everything out without breaking anything or having to cut anything.

You'll likely want to remove the intake, intercooler, AST and battery and tray to make things easier. The recessed bolt on my tray was welded to the cross-member by battery acid, so that was a bear :-)

I disconnected both of the lines from the a/c compressor before removing it. Also disconnect the wires. I disconnected several cables behind the a/c and ps just to make things easier to get at. Removing the cruise made it easier too.

One thing to note, disconnect the lines running to the drier (the round thing in the ducting to the battery and intercooler that's part of the a/c) first, then unbolt it from the front of the car and it lifts stright out. Otherwise you might bend or break those fragile lines.

Once you have lines and wires disconnected (not removed) from the compressor, you can simply take out the 4 12mm bolts that hold it to the plate and pull it out the front.

Once the compressor is out of the way, it's easy to get at all the 14mm (and one 17mm) bolts and nuts holding the ac/ps plate on the engine. I used some washers to shim the two brackets that needed to be left in place after the plate was removed.

Then just follow all the various a/c and ps lines around under the hood and under the car to remove them all, along with the condensor. Some require pretty large wrenches (greater than 18mm anyhow) on the a/c side, but they're not very tight so I just used an adjustable wrench and some channel-lock pliers on those (just one actually, the one by the turbos and intake).

You'll need 10, 12, 14 and 17mm wrenches and sockets. You'll need a pulley puller and impact wrench if you want to remove the ps from the plate. You'll also need some extensions for your ratchet, I used a few between a inch and 8 inches or so. I'm sure you could manage without them but this makes it a lot easier.

I did it all in my cramped garage on ramps and it took a few hours working slowly and figuring it out as I went along.

Note that my a/c had already leaked down so purging wasn't an issue. If yours is still full, it's advisable to take it somewhere to be recovered as it's illegal to vent freon and it poses some danger as it can freeze body parts that it comes in contact with.

Tubbs

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

If you road race then no PS will be fine. If you auto-x no PS will kick your *** and you will never be able to keep up in the tight stuff. PS is a requirement for auto-xing with R compound tires PERIOD.

On the street no PS works too but I don't really like driving a car with such heavy steering in parking lot situations.

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

Sheds a tear...

A pic of the begining of the end.

Jim that pic is not really fair... You did still have taillights, rear sway bar, IC, intake, etc right? So really to be equitable you needed to take pics of the stuff you didn't replace with aftermarket replacement stuff.