excuse the login, they wont let me log into plain ole suganuama anymore - doesnt like my password...

relevant mods can be seen @ www.geocities.com/efini3x/rx7mods.html

cliff notes are:
im having many symptoms of a blown apex seal and am looking to either confirm that or maybe find some other answers or things to look at/for...

details:

if y'all want more history on the car, ill post that later.
basically over spring break i installed haltech EMS, 1600cc injectors with SX FPR as far as big engine stuff goes. i was given the haltech used with a map for non-sequential and stock injectors that was very conservative (i.e. very rich). i ran the car for one day on the 850cc secondaries and this map while i was finalizing getting all the necessary fittings for the 1600cc injector rail. i did not run the car hard at this point at all.....in fact i hardly drove at all. i installed the 1600injectors the next day and started tuning the fuel map that night. on the advice of a good high horsepower running friend of mine I ran a linear map from bar 12 (~1psi) to bar 32 (30psi) with 3ms to 7.5ms respectively. these values were said to be very rich and conservative. i want to state right now that i DO NOT blame this individual for the subsequent events in any way. and this person will remain nameless to avoid any sort of bullshit distracting from the problem at hand.
all of this work was done in dallas during spring break the last weekend of break. i tuned it sat night and drove it back up to colorado on sunday night. while on the onramp out of duncanville i got into the throttle and some higher boost levels (12-13 psi).
and that was the first time i **** my pants...
i heard the metallic rattling sound of preignition that everyone talked about it. i noticed no decrease in power or change in idle b/c it was already osscilating and has been for some time. i could tune it out with the idle adjustment screws, but never could get it to idle right when cold, when warm, and right after a hard run. if it did one it would not do the other. at times the vacuum seemed fine at 14-15, but at others i saw it reaching more like 12 inHg. all of this kinda shook me up so i took it pretty easy and didnt get into the gas completely the whole way to colorado. when i checked the peak hold i saw the 13 psi and 1650*F exhaust temperature which seemed overly hot if i was to be running very rich. however, the computer i used to tune the fuel map before was just borrowed so i could not adjust the map then. i thought that it was possibly some sort of excess blow off or an error with the gauge. i was more worried about getting back to CO since i had to report into base here the next day. I noticed some smoke, but just attributed that to the fact that i was mixing in premix somewhat richly. idle and cruise EGT temps all seemed fine. engine temps good, but i still couldnt get a good vacuum reading. at partial throttle the car still felt strong so i didnt worry too much. got back to CO and changed the plugs that next weekend to look at their condition to get another perspective in how i was running. the plugs were replaced very recently so i knew that anything i saw through them was current.
ROTOR #2
leading is brown/black grey with no large deposits. i can see metal shining still on the inside portion closest to the electrode.
trailing is very similar
ROTOR #1
leading i accidently got some anti seize on so it may look strange if i get pictures to attach somewhere on the forum.
it is completely black with fuzzy deposits instead of the "harder" looking ones i am used to seeing.
trailing is black and brown and i can see the metal shining at the center like Rotor2, but it looks like this rotor is running comparatively richer than rotor 2.

i have a brand new leading coil that i had to buy b/c my ignition coil harness decided to crack on me and short out which got very hot and melted part of the coil housing and what not. i rewired the harness, but this could still be a weak point in the system.

i started the car on sunday last weekend and all seemed well. took it out for a light spin and didnt go WOT the whole time. EGT temps if i remember right were at about 12-1300 under boost.

came back to the forum and read a ton about symptoms and different EGT temps and ways to diagnose different problems that i thought that i might be having.

about this time i got my laptop in the mail. went out to the car to try and richen up the map, but the laptop will not communicate with the haltech for some reason. im stuck as to what to do there....i guess i could press into the wiring b/c i know its not the serial cable, and i dont think its the laptop but i guess i could try and see if someone else's may work. i remembered that i set base fuel pressure at 38lb so i went in and raised that to 42 to give a little more fuel. i read that 1550 is a good EGT temp to shoot for and wanted to see where i stood. set boost for 10 psi and did a WOT 2nd gear run. all looked good.....about 1500*F and decent power. it is still stumbling when the secondaries come on at 1 psi. everything seemed to be running well or at least better than before so i got back on the highway and thats when i **** my pants the 2nd time. i had set the boost controller since it was a cool evening so it read a good steady 12 psi in 2nd gear. got on the onramp and went into 3rd from about 3k rpm. hit around 4500 and heard the same sound again coming from what seemed like the passenger dash area or somewhere in the engine bay. sounded like a metal sheet rattling due to vibrations onto a thicker metal peice like a screw or something. i noticed not loss of power and it stopped as fast as it started. i backed off a bit though. i went into 4th gear....passed up the revs at WOT and heard the same thing again this time from the drivers side almost right in front of me in the dash/engine bay area.
so then i cursed a lot and took it easy on the way back. still had to go partial throttle to pass some people and power still feels fine there. i could rev the car in neutral from idle to whatever rev and it developed boost. so that symptom was not there.
i forgot to mention that on this day i got the idle to get somewhat steady while warm and at around 750-850 rpm i saw about 12 inHg which still seemed kinda low (i dont think im THAT ported....) these are new gauges, though, so the old gauges may have been a little off from these....i doubt it though.
anyways, i pull up to the security gate and the car sounds WEIRD at idle. like it is missing completely or the plugs are VERY fouled. sounds very lumpy like a big block with a lobed cam or something. its also somewhat lower (maybe 600, but going up and down between 500-700 as it "lopes"), but i did not play with the idle screws again to see what happens when i raise it up. i notice an indicated 9inHg which is constantly changing due to the idle fluctuations. car still feels fine at partial throttle....park it and turn it off and kick myself more.

i need a break from typing....ill continue this in a bit
hopefully SOMEONE takes the time to read it.....

 

PART II: diagnosis

im about 75% sure ive blown an apex seal
from talking with people i think i may have just split one down the middle so that at partial throttle it is ok, but the pressures of full throttle are too much in terms of compression pressures for it to handle and it is bleeding pressure.
im also looking at possiblities that i am running VERY rich, have a vacuum leak, bad ignition, or all of the above.

someone mentioned in a thread "rich misfiring" referenced from the shop manual as sounding like pinging....

ive done so much work and thinking with all of this i have a headache.....i need y'alls help

i've taken the original 550/850cc map given to me with the haltech, my modified map of that for the 1600cc's, the T-60 map (1600cc) and the stock twins/motor (850cc) map from ricemobile.net and compared them all.
i also tried doing a proportionality equation using the fact that the stock fuel system flows a total of 2300cc of fuel and the 1600s with 550s flow 4300cc and doing that as a ratio of sorts to decrease the values proportionally from those of the original 550/850 maps in the haltech. i did this using excel and the numbers for 2800cc and the injector values there and assuming that if you had 5600cc you would need the injectors to fire for half as much time as if you had 2800cc (tell me if this is wrong....may help say why these have such a split).

and now to the info. i looked at rows 18,19,20, and 21 along the boost line. these go from somewhere around 10# to 14.5#

original-----mine------t-60------TT-1(rice)----excel
850---------1600-----1600------850-----------1600
7.92--------4.352-----4.64------6.48----------4.98
8.528------4.576-----5.008-----6.92----------6.342
9.152------4.800-----5.20------7.392---------6.848
9.712------5.024-----5.424-----7.84----------7.258

 

obviously the excel #s look pretty askew and the original maps are very rich in comparison to what styk33 has for his values. i am just below styk33's maps for the T-60 which seems to be the same for his t-66 maps as well. this should be about right since with non-sequential twins im not flowing as much as his 60-1 or t-66.

i meant to mention ALL THESE VALUES WERE TAKEN AT 4500RPM page

if i would have gotten the haltech to work or if i still can i was looking to add .5ms to the entire map before hitting the dyno tomorrow (i just canceled the appt - SUCK MORE!!!!)

so im tired and thats all i remember to say right now....

im going to check plugs again tomorrow. if ANY of you have ANY info PLEASE help me out. call me at 214-673-7720 if you need more info or want an update.

TIA,

Nic

 

cant you just get a compression check and be sure? thats what i did, and i found that i have blown two apex seals in the rear rotor housing.

 

i am scheduled to get a compression test on wednesday in denver. i was not able to get into the only rotary shop in colorado until then.....they were all full for last week

forgot to mention that as well

 

It was back in November I want to say that I ran into something similar, it may help, it may not:

I went to a local autocross and had just gotten my car back from the body shop and ready to pick up the autox season where I left off. My engine had roughly 90k on it. My mods at the time were only intake, dp, catback, and fuel pump. I cranked up the car and proceeded to grid and noticed the car was running very rich (watering of eyes and the smell it was so bad). As I started the car up to go to the start line, I reved the car slightly to 2500-3000 and there was a tremendous pop out the rear exhaust and a good size flame apparently. I reved again and the same result. The car was now idling like crap, very lumpy idle seeking from 400-900. I was sure my engine had thrown a seal. I figured the damage was done and it had been a while since I had autocrossed so I went out anyway. It boosted fine, the car didn't stutter, stumble, or pop (any more than usual), it had magically disappeared. As I pulled back into grid, I reved it and POP, another shotgun blast and flame and the horrible idle. I let it cool down for a few minutes (embarassing with the idle) and attempted to troubleshoot. Everything seemed in order and I figured either it was some vacuum hose or I had lost an apex seal, but went out for another run. Again, when I was under boost, it pulled strong and was perfectly normal. I took the car in for a compression check as soon as possible, and was told, "It's running 7.8 front rotor and 7 on rear which is marginal." On the way home, I heard a horrible metallic grind/ting noise coming from the dash area on the passenger side of the car under light to moderate boost (exhaust was too loud for WOT) So I get the car home and as I come up with a plan of possible problems, I find the answer immediately. My turbos were completely shot. I had a pool of oil in my IC pipes and on the bottom of the IC (stock at the time). What happened was the oil was so deep in the IC that it was unable to pull in air so the vacuum was going crazy and the ECU didn't know what to do for idle. Under boost, the air was forced through the IC and the oil was displaced. The metallic noise was the exhaust wheels on the turbos (nasty looking when they came off). The car ran very rich because of the oil coming in the intake (premix the hard way) and the lack of air at idle. If I were you, my first thing to check would be IC pipes for unusual amounts of oil, from there, I would go with the compression check and cross your fingers. I apologize for the inconsistant rambling in this post as it is now 4:23AM and I just finished working on a car about to go to bed for a couple hours. Good luck and hope it's something simple!!

Richard

 

hm....interesting
i do in fact have smoke at WOT that is blueish in color from excess fuel/oil as i stated above (i think?)
i also have a lot of oil in the IC pipes. it still doesnt explain why i heard the almost same exact noise once on the passenger side and then again on the driver's side.
i hope i didnt get a bad set of turbos....they should only have around 11k on them now. i put on a different set that were rebuilt and converted to non sequential by KD rotary.
i think it sounds like a good excuse to rush my plannned IC and single turbo upgrade.....

i am still very nervous about the engine and tuning though. can anyone help out?

please, keep the comments coming....i want to hear all the possibilities....

 

i only get the sound at WOT at around 12-13 psi
i didnt hear it at 10 psi no matter what

also, spring break was my first time really driving on the new set of turbos i installed. they had 10k miles on them supposedly belonging to ErnieT before i took ownership of them. i got through someone who bought them from him when he went single...

i dont remember any severe play in the turbos....

 

Yeah, you need a cliffs note version for this post. Oh man, that was long! (that's what she said)

 

sorry....everytime i see something like this summed up, people are wanting more info

basically i am getting a sound similar to what everyone says is detonation, but i should be on the rich side of things. i have some symptoms of a blown seal, but i dont have some of the others at all.
idle, bad vacuum, but power is still there at partial throttle and when it made that sound there was no loss of power and it only happened in 3rd and 4th gear at right around 4500 rpm.

if you want more info, i guess youll have to read the 1st post.

1st post = what happened
2nd post = my initial diagnosis and info ive gathered to try and see whats going on

for all of you who take the time to read the whole thing and try to help me out, thanks a lot

-Nic

 

no one else has any info/suggestions/anything??

 

Have you ever been boosting above 10 psi with these turbos and not have this noise? I.e., did the noise start when you put the new turbos on?

Sorry if you have stated this or not. I did read, but sometimes my retention sucks.

 

so whats up with the EGT temps being so high then??
when i went from 38psi on the pressure regulator to 42 the temps went from around 1600 to 1650 to now around 1525*F

i thought i would be running very rich as well, especially at altitude since there is less oxygen in the air.

i am still having a problem getting the haltech to communicate with my laptop. i cant seem to figure out how to get into the BIOS which by the suggestion of my friends is what i need to do to reconfigure the serial port to COM1.

anyone know how to do that on an IBM thinkpad 380ED??

gordon, just b/c one name that im having to use has something like 14 posts on it, dont talk to me like i'm a moron....
i havent ever blown a motor or heard one try to run, so i dont know all of the characteristics. several people have told me that it WILL idle, but you will see definite fluctuations on your boost gauge in the vacuum which i am seeing. the exhaust sounds like there is an empty rotor almost spinning along side a good one. this could be a chamber not firing or possibly the seal not giving good compression to the two chambers that the seal affects. i think i may just have a split seal so that it is idling, but it will not hold larger pressures...sort of like a paperback book flat against a surface, but then yielding under greater pressure (try to picture that).

i think it is common knowledge that if youve blown ANY seal in the engine in any sort of way youre most likely looking at a rebuild although there are temporary fixes to some of those problems.
---maybe it will be helpful to someone who is just learning though--

thanks for your input though, and i wont be going in on your bet for $100 since this whole time ive only been 75% sure the motor has a split seal. it does still idle, drive somewhat smoothly (think i have an ignition problem as well that is getting worse so its missing sometimes a little up top and sometimes just missing completely everywhere. - checked plugs and plugs are good though)

youre right, those maps did come from about what my friend uses on his single turbo car - even richened up a bit from there so i dont understand this sound im hearing that sounds like what everyone describes detonation as. however, comparing things to styk33's maps i am around .4 to .5 ms lower than his fuel maps throughout.

anyone else have any ideas???

 

thanks gordon, if the laptop will work now ill try pulling out some fuel (maybe down in increments of .5ms) and taking the base pressure back down to 40 psi and post what happens.

i havent really been able to change anything since the laptop wouldnt communicate with the haltech....some sort of computer configuration settings. i had a computer friend wipe the hard drive and start all over again in windows 98, hopefully that will work.

 

well today i walked the mile down to the car and the laptop still wont communicate with the haltech - guess ill call haltech themselves tomorrow.

SO, since i couldnt take out fuel there i jsut went way low on fuel pressure....down to 33psi base pressure (didnt want to go too low as the vacuum part of the map is pretty much unchanged from 550/850 since the primary injectors are still used in that area and used to a higher pressure reaching them.

i figure in tuning everyone has to take a chance somewhere sooner or later....

creeped to peak of 10psi with profec since it was kinda warm out.....and EGT temps went DOWN to a peak of 1400*F. so part 1 of the problem is solved - im running very very rich it seems from these readings.

part 2 (metallic tapping noise under boost) is still present. its now present inconsistently from 4500 and up and it is coming from the drivers side of the engine - right around where the spark plugs and the rest of the ignition equipment is placed. i have a new ignition coil harness coming to me - maybe that will help to eliminate one possible culprit of the problem. i also remembered that right before i parked the car before coming home over spring break to work on the car and take it back to CO that i installed some MSD wires. i switched from magnecor 10mm. maybe ill try switching back if i can get ahold of some quickly and for a good price. anyone selling??

thats all ive got for an update for now......any ideas on the metallic tapping noise??

-Nic

 

this is fun, my own little thread....for me to tell myself whats going on.....

finally got haltech online today. when windows 98 was reloaded it set communications port to COM2. haltech was looking for COM1....changed a setting in the program from the offline mode and boom - it fires right up.

take base fuel pressure back up to around stock (38psi) and take .5ms of fuel out of the whole map. warmed up car and did a few 2nd gear runs. peak of 10 psi and 1400*F EGT. still getting the tapping sound under WOT and boost in the mid to high RPMs coming from the drivers side of the engine. i tried to ignore the sound and do a good run through 2nd and then into 3rd partaways where i saw the EGTs get to 1500 and then i just couldnt stand that noise and let off.

car idles and pulls pretty strong still....power is still not all there though

ignition coil harness from 94 car supposed to be here on thursday and Jacobs Rotary Pro Pak i ordered today should be here by the end of the week with their wires. when i install ill check the plugs and see what i see there and then plug it all up and see what happens.

as always, if anyone has ANY ideas or ANYthing to add....please speak up

thanks,

Nic

 

changed plugs - no change, plugs looked "ok" on removal
took out the leadings one at a time and turned the engine over on each rotor to see what it sounded like. pft pft pft - 3 even ones on each rotor. i tried a compression tool before this but it was a bitch to get in there - bad design when having to go from the top due to my working conditions. drove car, things still ok at partial throttle - get rattling under higher boost at same rpm.

get new ignition harness and jacobs in.....installed that car seemed to idle a little better - still rough though. vacuum didnt change from ticking from 8 to 7 inHg with each revolution. went to drive - was very hungry so i tried to go to the sonic right outside of base. get right outside base, get into first a little bit from the stop light and PFR PFR PFR, big puff of black smoke, loss of power, engine note went down an octave....****

limped it back through the gate and to the parking lot where it normally sits. vacuum is more like 4-5 inHg but it idles, but has no power.....er not much at all.

so i guess the consensus is that it split the seal at first and now its completely toast.....
hope i didnt screw up the housing too bad or anything

now ive gotta figure out how to get it pulled and shipped out to get rebuilt b/c i dont have the time to attempt the rebuild. anyone have suggestions on a builder?? things to do while the engine is out??
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...288#post632288

looking at having rob golden at pineapple do it - but ive gotta get it there somehow - need to ship it. that is, unless i can find a friend to hook me up somewhere else or if i find out that this puerto rican guy in denver is any good at building engines.....
relaly just concerned with the internal work that i want done to it - figure while im in there i should get some things done.

anyways, thats the deal for any of you that were wondering.....BLOWN

 

that sucks man. i feel your pain.