Modified Magazine Cover Story: FD Testing Event Virginia International Raceway
10-17-13, 11:06 AM
#527
Let's be real here. There's no replacement for displacement. Fact a larger displacement engine will always make more reliable LONG TERM higher up than an engine that's 50% smaller. They will also make less heat while doing it as they are more efficient at what they do. Here's and example for you. Let's say you have 2 engines making 400 hp. One engine is rated at 1.3l and the other at 2.0l. Barry Roads has combustion chamber testing equipment that will prove that the combustion chamber pressures and temperatures will be far greater in the smaller engine than the larger version to make the same exact hp as the larger engine. Fact any time you increase the combustion chambers temps and pressures, you also decrease that engines service life because it's simply more stressed. Fact that same small turbo engine may be running additional supporting components to help make it reliable (water injection, ignition amps) etc. Don't forget we don't have to worry about turbo heat, intercoolers, wastgates, perfect tunes, blow off valves, water injections, etc. All those additional components increase the chances of failure.
This is only one of the main reasons we have so many ls1 swaps going. Those engines are designed to make hp at those levels all day every day and under a lot less stress than an engine at half its displacement. Would you expect a turbo 2.4l out of an srt neon to make the same reliable 400 hp long term hp as an NA ls1? Which one do you think will be more stressed? Also just because you haven't seen a reliable NA 20b example doesn't mean they can't exist as there aren't many people building them.
Lastly you keep talking about justifying the cost. It's always gonna cost butt loads of money to do ANY customized engine conversion. I don't try to justify it but for some reason, you keep expecting us to justify the cost. I do it because I wanted to do it. My original engine lasted 108k before it blew. I could have just as easily rebuilt and modified it to make 350whp and had it back on the road years ago. That's not what I wanted to do. Instead, I wanted to pioneer a totally new intake system that would take NA potential to a whole new level. I also wanted to do something that Was unique and different and I wanted that unique exotic exhaust tone to go with it. I also wanted a lot less clutter in my engine bay. That's exactly what I got. Remember what WE 20b NA guys do only has to make sense to US and NOT everyone else.
This is only one of the main reasons we have so many ls1 swaps going. Those engines are designed to make hp at those levels all day every day and under a lot less stress than an engine at half its displacement. Would you expect a turbo 2.4l out of an srt neon to make the same reliable 400 hp long term hp as an NA ls1? Which one do you think will be more stressed? Also just because you haven't seen a reliable NA 20b example doesn't mean they can't exist as there aren't many people building them.
Lastly you keep talking about justifying the cost. It's always gonna cost butt loads of money to do ANY customized engine conversion. I don't try to justify it but for some reason, you keep expecting us to justify the cost. I do it because I wanted to do it. My original engine lasted 108k before it blew. I could have just as easily rebuilt and modified it to make 350whp and had it back on the road years ago. That's not what I wanted to do. Instead, I wanted to pioneer a totally new intake system that would take NA potential to a whole new level. I also wanted to do something that Was unique and different and I wanted that unique exotic exhaust tone to go with it. I also wanted a lot less clutter in my engine bay. That's exactly what I got. Remember what WE 20b NA guys do only has to make sense to US and NOT everyone else.
If you are happy with your finished product great for you, seriously that is what its about. I can appreciate any build of quality whether I agree with the end result or not. Some people choose the most expensive route to acheive average results and then act shocked and appalled others don't see the "greatness" that they have convinced themselves is there when it simply isn't.
I love all rotaries, more than your average enthusiast, I appreciate the power that a 20B is capable of accomplishing. I just don't get over excited and blinded by the hype and rarity of a 20B to over look the facts in front of me.
Seriously, street car NA 20B guys, just put a damn turbo on the engine already or at the very least a 75 shot.
10-17-13, 11:13 AM
#528
If for whatever reason Gordon doesnt take you up on it, I'd be glad to offer my car for any type of comparo. Unfortunately it wont be ready to attend this upcoming event, but the next time maybe in the spring for sure Ill be tracking it and attending as many events as possible. My car is a good bit more track oriented than Gs though, so not really sure if it would be what you are looking for.
Win/lose, or whether others like or dislike it is fairly irrelevant to me. Once my car is broken in and getting tuned I promise to share any dyno info or whatever others may want.
And just FYI, for the most part I agree with you. Id never be one to try and talk people into the N/A 20B, if for no other reason than cost. I do think it is a great setup for mild HP levels and I like N/A power delivery.. but when I had my FD on the stock twins, M2 ecu and ~13psi the car was a blast and that was probably ~2k in mods buying nice stuff used. If/when I get a second FD Im doing that again and leaving it be.
Win/lose, or whether others like or dislike it is fairly irrelevant to me. Once my car is broken in and getting tuned I promise to share any dyno info or whatever others may want.
And just FYI, for the most part I agree with you. Id never be one to try and talk people into the N/A 20B, if for no other reason than cost. I do think it is a great setup for mild HP levels and I like N/A power delivery.. but when I had my FD on the stock twins, M2 ecu and ~13psi the car was a blast and that was probably ~2k in mods buying nice stuff used. If/when I get a second FD Im doing that again and leaving it be.
I would love to do the comparison and I fully understand the swap for a very well balanced track car, I truly do. Its just the veiled insults by some of the NA 20B owners at those who have questioned the power output or end result of the builds that get old. I just want someone to show me a NA 20B that could even get close to being considered a full street car and emission compliant(or even in the ballpark) that has a better torque curve below 8000 rpms than a truly stock port emission compliant 13B-REW with basic bolt ons. And claiming one is more reliable is comical as besides Logan's setup none seem to last on the road more than a couple thousand miles.
10-18-13, 10:15 PM
#529
Dude, power isn't everything!
If you think that 375wrhp (or roughly 450crank) in a 2,800lb car (which has a power to weight of 6.2 lbs per hp which is Z06 territory) is slow, then your just power hungry. I could easily say that some of you turbo guys are obsessed by power figures but I'm not. The white LS1 fd I rode in put down 465wrhp. It was the fastest thing at the event and more than fast enough to satisfy my needs on the street. Mine isn't gonna put down that much and I don't need it too. To each his own!
10-18-13, 10:26 PM
#530
Its just the veiled insults by some of the NA 20B owners at those who have questioned the power output or end result of the builds that get old. I just want someone to show me a NA 20B that could even get close to being considered a full street car and emission compliant(or even in the ballpark) that has a better torque curve below 8000 rpms than a truly stock port emission compliant 13B-REW with basic bolt ons. And claiming one is more reliable is comical as besides Logan's setup none seem to last on the road more than a couple thousand miles.
There's nothing comical about it. What about NA 20b's are you referring to that aren't reliable? Show me one thread where anyone with a NA 20b blew a seal? I could probably pull up 100 threads in the fd section alone on the REW. You do know that all these aftermarket apex seal manufacturers are making unbreakable seals for a reason? None of those reasons have anything to do with an NA 20b. Your confusing reliability with engineering errors during the build. They are not one in the same. Most rotor heads think they know everything there is about rotarys. That is until you ask them to build a NA beast and then their head explodes because they don't have a clue about how rotary's truly make power. It not as simple as turning up the boost and changing timing. Seriously can't you just be happy with your own set-up and not be so obsessed about that others do? Is "I told you so" really that important to you? The 20b NA thing it still in it's infancy. Give it time! You won't have to wait much longer for those above results.
10-18-13, 10:53 PM
#532
Yea. Rxman720b gave me a ride in his back in 2004 at Sevenstock 7. Is was the fastest thing I had ever been in and he was making around 550rwhp. At that time, I already had my engine and was planning on going single and making 600RWHP. Well after riding in that car, I knew right then that I was way over my head in wanting anything that powerful. That's why I decided to go NA 1st and built my intake with the possibility of turboing the setup later. I know at some point I'm gonna get use to the speed once I start tracking the car and maybe wanna boost it again. I still and will always have much love for turboed rotary's. The NA thing right now is very intoxicating to me because I've learned so much.