Mazda Remans..... the saga continues
07-21-14, 09:04 AM
#52
As serious as that is, it is minor compared to what we have been seeing come out of the Reman facility, lately.
This is the most recent one we opened up, had zero end play, found an FC copper crush washer in the hub, then found a brand new N326 S4 N/A low pressure oil pump.
This is the most recent one we opened up, had zero end play, found an FC copper crush washer in the hub, then found a brand new N326 S4 N/A low pressure oil pump.
07-21-14, 09:19 AM
#53
The one we received right before that one:
• No end play
• Metal discovered in oil pan
• Oil pressure regulator not tightened down; left loose
• End space shows damage
• Rear & Front rotor bearing damaged
• Corresponding E-Shaft damage
• S4 TII rotor installed on rear & front
And the really big deal, collapsed coolant seal retaining wall.
• No end play
• Metal discovered in oil pan
• Oil pressure regulator not tightened down; left loose
• End space shows damage
• Rear & Front rotor bearing damaged
• Corresponding E-Shaft damage
• S4 TII rotor installed on rear & front
And the really big deal, collapsed coolant seal retaining wall.
07-21-14, 11:10 AM
#56
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07-21-14, 12:08 PM
#57
This is all very unsettling as i am working to install a reman which i bought with low miles vs rebuilding my blown O-ring stocker. Without tearing it down, are there any clues to this garbage? The car I got it out of had a lot of brown oily sludge coating the water overflow tank as well as AST. If that's the tell-tale sign, should I go ahead and have it opened up since I've got it down to the short block, or put it in and flush the hell out of it? (The gunk could be attributed to the prior engine as the remain has less than a grand on it)
07-21-14, 04:51 PM
#59
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Holy crap... that's all REALLY bad!
Have you guys (Rich and Chris) let Ray know how shitty the quality control on the new remans is? Last I spoke to him about them he was under the impression they were being made in Richmond, Va with practically all new parts.
I'd bet Ray could exert some pull to get these problems rectified through internal channels.
Have you guys (Rich and Chris) let Ray know how shitty the quality control on the new remans is? Last I spoke to him about them he was under the impression they were being made in Richmond, Va with practically all new parts.
I'd bet Ray could exert some pull to get these problems rectified through internal channels.
07-21-14, 06:50 PM
#61
Holy crap... that's all REALLY bad!
Have you guys (Rich and Chris) let Ray know how shitty the quality control on the new remans is? Last I spoke to him about them he was under the impression they were being made in Richmond, Va with practically all new parts.
I'd bet Ray could exert some pull to get these problems rectified through internal channels.
Have you guys (Rich and Chris) let Ray know how shitty the quality control on the new remans is? Last I spoke to him about them he was under the impression they were being made in Richmond, Va with practically all new parts.
I'd bet Ray could exert some pull to get these problems rectified through internal channels.
07-21-14, 07:27 PM
#62
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Has Ray told anyone if anything was being done, to rectify the problems
Sounds like a few people building engines need fired
Also I think I speak for everyone when I say THANK YOU , to those who open up remans and inform everyone about what's going on
Sounds like a few people building engines need fired
Also I think I speak for everyone when I say THANK YOU , to those who open up remans and inform everyone about what's going on
07-23-14, 12:13 AM
#63
The corrosion and buildup in the coolant passages is because mazda leaves water in the engines. A lot of these issues seem to have started over the past few years since mazda re-opened the reman program. I believe they are using cheap labor instead of skilled workers. A lot of this can be blamed on the economy, but still isn't right. I'm not sure how the reman facility is set up, but I imagine that the engines are disassembled when they come in. Then the parts are cleaned, inspected and sorted. Then the individual workers that assemble the engines are given a pile of parts to build each engine. The person building the engine isn't inspecting the parts as they assume the ones given to them are fit to be used.
I've found the following:
Missing corner seal spring
2nd gen crush washer on e-shaft bolt
Plastic and rubber double o-ring installed with a metal front cover gasket (not needed. They will get pushed out and into the oil pan)
2 motors had rx8 front counterweights. The motors vibrated badly.
Pinched eshaft bolt o-ring. Motor leaked oil.
Damage to the edges of rotor bearings from careless handling/assembly.
Set screws for main bearings not lined up and deforming the bearings.
Oil jets in e-shaft loose.
Secondary fuel atomizers installed in center iron.
Bearing plate scored from a previously pinched thrust bearing. It would have ruined the new thrust bearing.
Overall sloppy seal clearancing.
That being said, the remans are still a great deal as it is very cost prohibitive trying to piece together a motor. Every reman I've seen in the past few years has new rotor housings. I recommend them as a starting point for any build but strongly recommend disassembling them.
We have returned engines and gotten replacements without any trouble through Ray.
I've found the following:
Missing corner seal spring
2nd gen crush washer on e-shaft bolt
Plastic and rubber double o-ring installed with a metal front cover gasket (not needed. They will get pushed out and into the oil pan)
2 motors had rx8 front counterweights. The motors vibrated badly.
Pinched eshaft bolt o-ring. Motor leaked oil.
Damage to the edges of rotor bearings from careless handling/assembly.
Set screws for main bearings not lined up and deforming the bearings.
Oil jets in e-shaft loose.
Secondary fuel atomizers installed in center iron.
Bearing plate scored from a previously pinched thrust bearing. It would have ruined the new thrust bearing.
Overall sloppy seal clearancing.
That being said, the remans are still a great deal as it is very cost prohibitive trying to piece together a motor. Every reman I've seen in the past few years has new rotor housings. I recommend them as a starting point for any build but strongly recommend disassembling them.
We have returned engines and gotten replacements without any trouble through Ray.
Last edited by IRPerformance; 07-23-14 at 12:18 AM.
07-23-14, 06:53 AM
#64
I did speak with Ray yesterday, he had received a couple cancellations as a result of this thread. He had sent an email to his contacts at Mazda, but at the time I was talking to him, had not had any responses. He had also sent the pictures that I posted above to the Reman facility but that seemed to yield little result as well.
That being said the Remans are under warranty, but for the engine only, no labor, gaskets, fluids, etc. Ray does a great job of warrantying the engines, since after all that is all he can do, he is not building them, just selling the part that Mazda has contracted to supply.
The very first thing I do when the shipping crate is opened, is check the endplay. There should be a slight amount of movement, with a small click noise. Every Reman we have received with zero endplay has had assembly defects/worn bearings. If there is too much slop this is an issue also. This will not identify if the engine was assembled with incorrect rotors or broken irons, but it sends up a red flag that the Reman should come apart or be returned.
If you have too many broken parts in your existing engine, the Reman is still an option as long as you are still planning on opening the engine and rebuilding it. Until I see a marked improvement in the Reman assembly quality we will not install one without rebuilding it first, basically we are treating it the same as a used/JDM engine.
The Remans situation does explain why we have had a growing number of engines being shipped to us for rebuild from Mazda Dealers.
Last edited by Banzai-Racing; 07-23-14 at 06:56 AM.
07-23-14, 07:29 AM
#65
Wow this is shocking.
When I opened my motor in my FD a couple weeks ago I found an oil control ring crushed along with it's underlying spring. My engine builder said that only happens if its installed improperly. Other things were the oil control ring springs were not in their retaining slot so they had floated around, and one of the tension bolts was missing a washer. This was supposededly an all original engine with 52k miles on it.
"They know, they just don't care..."
-Batman 'Dark Knight Rises'
When I opened my motor in my FD a couple weeks ago I found an oil control ring crushed along with it's underlying spring. My engine builder said that only happens if its installed improperly. Other things were the oil control ring springs were not in their retaining slot so they had floated around, and one of the tension bolts was missing a washer. This was supposededly an all original engine with 52k miles on it.
"They know, they just don't care..."
-Batman 'Dark Knight Rises'
07-23-14, 10:37 AM
#67
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they could, but imagine how much it would cost? 2 rotor housings, ALL the seals and gaskets, at full list, plus the 30 some odd hours of labor? it could easily be $10,000.
07-23-14, 11:59 AM
#68
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The very first thing I do when the shipping crate is opened, is check the endplay. There should be a slight amount of movement, with a small click noise. Every Reman we have received with zero endplay has had assembly defects/worn bearings. If there is too much slop this is an issue also. This will not identify if the engine was assembled with incorrect rotors or broken irons, but it sends up a red flag that the Reman should come apart or be returned.
If you have too many broken parts in your existing engine, the Reman is still an option as long as you are still planning on opening the engine and rebuilding it. Until I see a marked improvement in the Reman assembly quality we will not install one without rebuilding it first, basically we are treating it the same as a used/JDM engine.
If you have too many broken parts in your existing engine, the Reman is still an option as long as you are still planning on opening the engine and rebuilding it. Until I see a marked improvement in the Reman assembly quality we will not install one without rebuilding it first, basically we are treating it the same as a used/JDM engine.
07-23-14, 12:39 PM
#69
If someone wanted the engine rebuilt with the existing OEM apex seals, we could offer a lower cost option, but there is still going to be double shipping and the soft seal kit. Mazda requires a core returned so it does not matter what is in spec.
We rebuild supplied cores already with Levels 1-4
07-23-14, 02:29 PM
#70
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w re to endplay, i am not surprised that many remans have zero.
the mazda shop manual i have details the procedure incorrectly.
the manual says build the stack and torque it to 80-98 pounds, measure endplay etc.. if O K, you install the front cover and do a final torque on the front bolt to 180-200.
that may work for Mazda but not for me. the additional 100 ft pounds closes up the endplay often to zero. since we are dealing w hourly workers that are probably thinking about where they are going to go for beer after work..
if they do the initial at 80/98 and check endplay AFTER doing the front cover and 180/200 they would find they have to remove the bolt AND the front cover to get proper endplay.
(do initial at 190 and you will get it right)...
i am sure most engine builders that are interested in doing a build right appreciate the fact that it takes quite a bit longer to do it right rather than "assembling" it.
oh well.
hc
the mazda shop manual i have details the procedure incorrectly.
the manual says build the stack and torque it to 80-98 pounds, measure endplay etc.. if O K, you install the front cover and do a final torque on the front bolt to 180-200.
that may work for Mazda but not for me. the additional 100 ft pounds closes up the endplay often to zero. since we are dealing w hourly workers that are probably thinking about where they are going to go for beer after work..
if they do the initial at 80/98 and check endplay AFTER doing the front cover and 180/200 they would find they have to remove the bolt AND the front cover to get proper endplay.
(do initial at 190 and you will get it right)...
i am sure most engine builders that are interested in doing a build right appreciate the fact that it takes quite a bit longer to do it right rather than "assembling" it.
oh well.
hc
Last edited by Howard Coleman; 07-23-14 at 02:33 PM.
07-23-14, 10:52 PM
#72
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Wow this is shocking.
When I opened my motor in my FD a couple weeks ago I found an oil control ring crushed along with it's underlying spring. My engine builder said that only happens if its installed improperly. Other things were the oil control ring springs were not in their retaining slot so they had floated around, and one of the tension bolts was missing a washer. This was supposededly an all original engine with 52k miles on it.
"They know, they just don't care..."
-Batman 'Dark Knight Rises'
When I opened my motor in my FD a couple weeks ago I found an oil control ring crushed along with it's underlying spring. My engine builder said that only happens if its installed improperly. Other things were the oil control ring springs were not in their retaining slot so they had floated around, and one of the tension bolts was missing a washer. This was supposededly an all original engine with 52k miles on it.
"They know, they just don't care..."
-Batman 'Dark Knight Rises'
If the lower exhaust side tension bolt is missing the washer, that's ok as it doesn't see coolant. The other 17 need it however
08-23-14, 08:49 PM
#73
I purchased a factory Japan engine as a backup when Ray was offering them.
Everything looked so shiny new, that I doubt the block was sitting for more than a few months,
but I could be wrong.
I removed the drain plug on the lower center iron and tilted the engine on it's side.
There wasn't one drop of coolant inside.
I'll probably still flush it before running it and flush the cooling system at 2 weeks and again at 1 month (if dirty at 2 weeks),
after reading this thread, but that's about it.
Would I like better seals, porting and any potential rust removed ? ... of course,
but can't justify shipping costs on top of labor costs.
I didn't notice any end play or end play clicking, but not sure if it's supposed to be pulley side play or end to end shaft play ?
I'll post if anything other than distilled water comes out when I flush it.
Everything looked so shiny new, that I doubt the block was sitting for more than a few months,
but I could be wrong.
I removed the drain plug on the lower center iron and tilted the engine on it's side.
There wasn't one drop of coolant inside.
I'll probably still flush it before running it and flush the cooling system at 2 weeks and again at 1 month (if dirty at 2 weeks),
after reading this thread, but that's about it.
Would I like better seals, porting and any potential rust removed ? ... of course,
but can't justify shipping costs on top of labor costs.
I didn't notice any end play or end play clicking, but not sure if it's supposed to be pulley side play or end to end shaft play ?
I'll post if anything other than distilled water comes out when I flush it.
08-28-14, 01:18 PM
#74
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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^end play is just that, end-to-end. You should feel a slight amount when pulling on the flywheel or main hub pulleys. If you feel zero movement when really giving it a tug, that's not a good sign. Make sure the engine is braced and immobile such as on a stand when you do this.
