"Mazda CEO Rules Out Rotary-Powered Sports Car"
11-12-14, 04:19 PM
#26
a quick google shows that between 2008-2013 Renault has sold something 7860 GTR's in the US, which, given the price, and the down market in 08-09, is probably "quite well", it was probably never meant to sell in huge numbers.
just to add a data points, in 2013
Porsche sold 10,442 911's
Chevy sold 13,466 Vettes
hyundai sold 30,711 velosters.
38,157 people bought Jukes
and 5780 people bought Miatas in 2013.
if you want my opinion, the NC miata is a big flop, 74,995, from 2006-2013. the Rx8 sold 73,379, and is dead.
just to add a data points, in 2013
Porsche sold 10,442 911's
Chevy sold 13,466 Vettes
hyundai sold 30,711 velosters.
38,157 people bought Jukes
and 5780 people bought Miatas in 2013.
if you want my opinion, the NC miata is a big flop, 74,995, from 2006-2013. the Rx8 sold 73,379, and is dead.
If the Germans are putting turbos in their cars...then the Japanese should also be doing that. In the 90s it was the other way around...you could not find a BMW with a turbo, and all the Japanese sports cars were turbo-ed (cept the nsx) Rx-7, Supra, Skyline, Silvia, Z, Impreza...etc
Today it seems the other way around...BMW using twin-turbos in their cars...Mercedes has a 4 cylinder turbo AMG engine...and Japan coming out with NA cars (cept the STI, Evo and Skyline)
I say...put a turbo on anything...Miata, BRZ, 370Z get the HP numbers up, compete with the 3 series coupe, vettes at a lower MSRP
And bring back the straight six turbo! If the Bavarians can do it...and do it well..so can the Japanese
11-12-14, 04:38 PM
#27
In my experience, the two most important things for a business is to increase profit and keep its customers/investors happy. The order of importance is really up to the business.
Mazda is trying to do exactly that by producing vehicles that will make its customers happy (gas mileage, comfort, ect.) which in turn will result in more sales and profit. Their business model is dead on.
However, personally, I would like to see Mazda take more risks and offer some more Zoom-Zoom cars instead of the "we want to be like everyone other car company" cars. What we few want doesn't really matter to Mazda in terms of their big picture, but that does not mean we can't try to do something about it.
Here is my master plan: Find out if the CEO has a daughter. We send the best looking guy on this forum to go and seduce her, make her fall in love, and get married (that is called taking one for the team). After that, our spy will brain washer her into forcing her dad (CEO) into producing another rotary sports car. This will take years of research and planning but it will all be worth it. lol
Mazda is trying to do exactly that by producing vehicles that will make its customers happy (gas mileage, comfort, ect.) which in turn will result in more sales and profit. Their business model is dead on.
However, personally, I would like to see Mazda take more risks and offer some more Zoom-Zoom cars instead of the "we want to be like everyone other car company" cars. What we few want doesn't really matter to Mazda in terms of their big picture, but that does not mean we can't try to do something about it.
Here is my master plan: Find out if the CEO has a daughter. We send the best looking guy on this forum to go and seduce her, make her fall in love, and get married (that is called taking one for the team). After that, our spy will brain washer her into forcing her dad (CEO) into producing another rotary sports car. This will take years of research and planning but it will all be worth it. lol
11-12-14, 04:52 PM
#28
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The market for the rotary isn't there IMO. Yes, we all own the rx7 and love the car to death, but how many of us actually bought the car new and anywhere full retail price when new? The car today would be around $60K, let's say they can sell one for around 40-50K. Who the heck is going to buy a $40-50K middle of the market japanese car?
I am 33 yrs old and know this age group pretty well. I am the least successful of my graduating college class with a good amount of money. The friends I know drive a lamborghini, a large pick up truck, and the one who owns his business drives a tundra. The people my age group at work drive cheap cars, as do I, and own second cars like rx7's. We purchased them because of the value.
There is no way I would buy a new supra or rx9 or whatever it may be, the price point/value is to high/little. The older generation (baby boomers) love the american made cars. vette's etc. The gen x who are very well off, which isn't a ton of people, most likely buy the high end stuff or nothing really in the middle. Most of the metal lovers drive what is logical for a family and skip the fast cars. they seem to not be too interested in the sports cars as much as the older gen. I just don't see a market that will do amazing for the middle to high priced import japanese cars.
The rx7 is such an amazing car because its so well priced for its value/performance. such a hobby car.
The Miata is crap, S2000 is crap, EVO, STI is crap. These cars do well cause they are cheap and appeal to the younger gen of japanese anime. They are just cheap enough, but when looking at them, they are so damn ugly. The s2000 and miata are too small for most american people.
I am 33 yrs old and know this age group pretty well. I am the least successful of my graduating college class with a good amount of money. The friends I know drive a lamborghini, a large pick up truck, and the one who owns his business drives a tundra. The people my age group at work drive cheap cars, as do I, and own second cars like rx7's. We purchased them because of the value.
There is no way I would buy a new supra or rx9 or whatever it may be, the price point/value is to high/little. The older generation (baby boomers) love the american made cars. vette's etc. The gen x who are very well off, which isn't a ton of people, most likely buy the high end stuff or nothing really in the middle. Most of the metal lovers drive what is logical for a family and skip the fast cars. they seem to not be too interested in the sports cars as much as the older gen. I just don't see a market that will do amazing for the middle to high priced import japanese cars.
The rx7 is such an amazing car because its so well priced for its value/performance. such a hobby car.
The Miata is crap, S2000 is crap, EVO, STI is crap. These cars do well cause they are cheap and appeal to the younger gen of japanese anime. They are just cheap enough, but when looking at them, they are so damn ugly. The s2000 and miata are too small for most american people.
11-12-14, 07:34 PM
#29
The market wasn't there for the GTR either. Only fan bois cared about them and people who wanted it because it was rare. When I look at a GTR it is absolutely hideous to me, they are commanding $100k+ for a Nissan with very little "sex" appeal. After saying all that, I'm in the market for a used one if the right deal popped up.
If the performance is there, buyers are there. It's that simple. A 350-400hp, 2600lb rotary car with good looks and incredible handling would sell for $50k+. Guys are happily paying $25k for a used FD with under 30k miles. The rx8 was a turd and sold good numbers comparably to what is out there. The performance didn't justify the rotary headaches for buyers. GTR owners don't bat an eye at a $15k transmission bill because it is still the cheapest car to own at that level of performance.
If the performance is there, buyers are there. It's that simple. A 350-400hp, 2600lb rotary car with good looks and incredible handling would sell for $50k+. Guys are happily paying $25k for a used FD with under 30k miles. The rx8 was a turd and sold good numbers comparably to what is out there. The performance didn't justify the rotary headaches for buyers. GTR owners don't bat an eye at a $15k transmission bill because it is still the cheapest car to own at that level of performance.
11-12-14, 10:13 PM
#30
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The 50th anniversary of the rotary will not come and go without another RX-whatever from Mazda; it may be a Wankel utilized as some sort of hybrid powerplant, but there's no way they'll ignore the heritage and the engine they were always known for (and that everyone else abandoned).
11-12-14, 10:39 PM
#31
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The market wasn't there for the GTR either. Only fan bois cared about them and people who wanted it because it was rare. When I look at a GTR it is absolutely hideous to me, they are commanding $100k+ for a Nissan with very little "sex" appeal. After saying all that, I'm in the market for a used one if the right deal popped up.
If the performance is there, buyers are there. It's that simple. A 350-400hp, 2600lb rotary car with good looks and incredible handling would sell for $50k+. Guys are happily paying $25k for a used FD with under 30k miles. The rx8 was a turd and sold good numbers comparably to what is out there. The performance didn't justify the rotary headaches for buyers. GTR owners don't bat an eye at a $15k transmission bill because it is still the cheapest car to own at that level of performance.
If the performance is there, buyers are there. It's that simple. A 350-400hp, 2600lb rotary car with good looks and incredible handling would sell for $50k+. Guys are happily paying $25k for a used FD with under 30k miles. The rx8 was a turd and sold good numbers comparably to what is out there. The performance didn't justify the rotary headaches for buyers. GTR owners don't bat an eye at a $15k transmission bill because it is still the cheapest car to own at that level of performance.
The GTR is an overpriced complex machine which I would never even look at. I am not able to fix most of the stuff on the car, let alone the insurance costs and what about registration on these new cars. My state index the cost to register off of age and price. I don't see myself ever buying a new car in most of these states with insanely high registration rates. I am not paying $1,000 on an expensive new car. even $750/yr is outrageous. My rx7 to register is $68/yr not to mention insurance.
The pre-OBD2 cars are so easy to modify, there is no worries about all the emissions crap on the car, all the complex junk, computers, etc. I chose an rx7 because of the simplicity of it, the uniqueness, price, and performance.
I would avoid most new cars because of the price, ununiqueness, and complexity. The joy of being able to control a beast is fun, a GTR, EVO, etc controls you.
Name some new cars that look unique. I think they all almost look the same. The cheaper models are all knock offs of each other, lots of models share chassis or engines, etc, etc.
I think I would rather have a 63 corvette or something over most of the new cars.
The cheapest car for level of performance is a ZR1. The ZR1 will make a GTR look pansy.
I just went to my county in CO to see how much a $105,000 new car would cost to register.
Estimate = $1,967.25
Taxable Value (85% of MSRP) = $89,250.00
multiplied by Year of Vehicle Rate = .021
plus the estimated cost by Type of Vehicle = $93.00
ESTIMATED TOTAL = $1,967.25
If the car was built in 2010, it would cost $896.25. screw that.
11-12-14, 10:59 PM
#32
The NC miata .. I honestly never liked the NC.. it wasnt a very pretty car it wasnt specially fast . it was kind of heavy . for what it was supposed to be .
And the new miata followed in its footsteps except for being a bit better looking .
not to mention its expensive
And the new miata followed in its footsteps except for being a bit better looking .
not to mention its expensive
11-12-14, 11:53 PM
#33
Perhaps the engineer in me will disagree. I am all about value, looks, performance, etc.
The GTR is an overpriced complex machine which I would never even look at. I am not able to fix most of the stuff on the car, let alone the insurance costs and what about registration on these new cars. My state index the cost to register off of age and price. I don't see myself ever buying a new car in most of these states with insanely high registration rates. I am not paying $1,000 on an expensive new car. even $750/yr is outrageous. My rx7 to register is $68/yr not to mention insurance.
The pre-OBD2 cars are so easy to modify, there is no worries about all the emissions crap on the car, all the complex junk, computers, etc. I chose an rx7 because of the simplicity of it, the uniqueness, price, and performance.
I would avoid most new cars because of the price, ununiqueness, and complexity. The joy of being able to control a beast is fun, a GTR, EVO, etc controls you.
Name some new cars that look unique. I think they all almost look the same. The cheaper models are all knock offs of each other, lots of models share chassis or engines, etc, etc.
I think I would rather have a 63 corvette or something over most of the new cars.
The cheapest car for level of performance is a ZR1. The ZR1 will make a GTR look pansy.
I just went to my county in CO to see how much a $105,000 new car would cost to register.
Estimate = $1,967.25
Taxable Value (85% of MSRP) = $89,250.00
multiplied by Year of Vehicle Rate = .021
plus the estimated cost by Type of Vehicle = $93.00
ESTIMATED TOTAL = $1,967.25
If the car was built in 2010, it would cost $896.25. screw that.
The GTR is an overpriced complex machine which I would never even look at. I am not able to fix most of the stuff on the car, let alone the insurance costs and what about registration on these new cars. My state index the cost to register off of age and price. I don't see myself ever buying a new car in most of these states with insanely high registration rates. I am not paying $1,000 on an expensive new car. even $750/yr is outrageous. My rx7 to register is $68/yr not to mention insurance.
The pre-OBD2 cars are so easy to modify, there is no worries about all the emissions crap on the car, all the complex junk, computers, etc. I chose an rx7 because of the simplicity of it, the uniqueness, price, and performance.
I would avoid most new cars because of the price, ununiqueness, and complexity. The joy of being able to control a beast is fun, a GTR, EVO, etc controls you.
Name some new cars that look unique. I think they all almost look the same. The cheaper models are all knock offs of each other, lots of models share chassis or engines, etc, etc.
I think I would rather have a 63 corvette or something over most of the new cars.
The cheapest car for level of performance is a ZR1. The ZR1 will make a GTR look pansy.
I just went to my county in CO to see how much a $105,000 new car would cost to register.
Estimate = $1,967.25
Taxable Value (85% of MSRP) = $89,250.00
multiplied by Year of Vehicle Rate = .021
plus the estimated cost by Type of Vehicle = $93.00
ESTIMATED TOTAL = $1,967.25
If the car was built in 2010, it would cost $896.25. screw that.
If you won't pay the price you wont get to enjoy a turbo import making 500+awtq at under 3000rpms. I'm not sure about the ZR1 making the GTR look pansy, stock for stock it has a slight advantage against the 09 GTRs. The 2015s which are priced nearly identical to the ZR1 are pulling under 3 second 0-60 times and quarter miles hovering right around 11 seconds flat. The GTR is the most bang for the buck and can make an average driver look extraordinary. I too don't like the looks of the GTR but the performance is pretty incredible.
They can be had used in the high $40k and low $50K range. Used they are cheaper than 997 Turbos and slightly more expensive than a C6 Z06. There is a big void in used sports cars between the $20k-$60k range and the GTR is the lowest entry level into supercar performance. The C6 Z06 is right there as well and admittedly a great car and buy. The transmission is scary on the early GTRs but starting with a factory turbo platform with near bullet proof engine its hard to argue against. They have been a success story for Nissan when none of the other Japanese manufacturers have anything to show.
11-13-14, 12:36 AM
#34
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It was nice to hope a new RX would be unvailed. But like others here im not surprised. for mazda to stay afloat and competitive they really need to focus on their core cars. it would be a big gamble to put a big brunt of their r and d into the RX. but i think a new RX can also bring excitement back into a brand and bring in new potential brand loyal customers
11-13-14, 07:21 AM
#36
The market for the rotary isn't there IMO. Yes, we all own the rx7 and love the car to death, but how many of us actually bought the car new and anywhere full retail price when new? The car today would be around $60K, let's say they can sell one for around 40-50K. Who the heck is going to buy a $40-50K middle of the market japanese car?
I am 33 yrs old and know this age group pretty well. I am the least successful of my graduating college class with a good amount of money. The friends I know drive a lamborghini, a large pick up truck, and the one who owns his business drives a tundra. The people my age group at work drive cheap cars, as do I, and own second cars like rx7's. We purchased them because of the value.
There is no way I would buy a new supra or rx9 or whatever it may be, the price point/value is to high/little. The older generation (baby boomers) love the american made cars. vette's etc. The gen x who are very well off, which isn't a ton of people, most likely buy the high end stuff or nothing really in the middle. Most of the metal lovers drive what is logical for a family and skip the fast cars. they seem to not be too interested in the sports cars as much as the older gen. I just don't see a market that will do amazing for the middle to high priced import japanese cars.
The rx7 is such an amazing car because its so well priced for its value/performance. such a hobby car.
The Miata is crap, S2000 is crap, EVO, STI is crap. These cars do well cause they are cheap and appeal to the younger gen of japanese anime. They are just cheap enough, but when looking at them, they are so damn ugly. The s2000 and miata are too small for most american people.
I am 33 yrs old and know this age group pretty well. I am the least successful of my graduating college class with a good amount of money. The friends I know drive a lamborghini, a large pick up truck, and the one who owns his business drives a tundra. The people my age group at work drive cheap cars, as do I, and own second cars like rx7's. We purchased them because of the value.
There is no way I would buy a new supra or rx9 or whatever it may be, the price point/value is to high/little. The older generation (baby boomers) love the american made cars. vette's etc. The gen x who are very well off, which isn't a ton of people, most likely buy the high end stuff or nothing really in the middle. Most of the metal lovers drive what is logical for a family and skip the fast cars. they seem to not be too interested in the sports cars as much as the older gen. I just don't see a market that will do amazing for the middle to high priced import japanese cars.
The rx7 is such an amazing car because its so well priced for its value/performance. such a hobby car.
The Miata is crap, S2000 is crap, EVO, STI is crap. These cars do well cause they are cheap and appeal to the younger gen of japanese anime. They are just cheap enough, but when looking at them, they are so damn ugly. The s2000 and miata are too small for most american people.
I don't think the design can keep up with the trends in Fuel consumption, emissions and customers who have certain power and performance expectations.
That being said, most people people willing to spend $60k+ on a performance car want it to be bullet proof. When manufacturers proved they could do this with cars like the Supra, GT-R, Porsche Turbo etc. expectations narrowed down Mazdas options with the Rotor motor.
I would have considered a new RX-7 if they finally proved they could make the motors bullitproof and still maintain a competitive edge.
That would probably be the consensus as I wouldn't buy it for the first year or two and stand on the sidelines while tuner shops modded it and folks raced then to see if the durability was there.
I wouldn't be rushing out to buy one and that wouldn't help Mazda with me standing around waiting for it to fail.
11-13-14, 07:31 AM
#37
If Mazda abandons the rotary motor they still need a flagship car.
I would love it if they put a Coyote motor in a sleek 2 seater like that of the RX-7.
Change the name if need be.
I still think the FD is one of the best looking sports cars ever made. It's what keeps me coming back to Mazda. I've never been crazy for anything else they make.
But all the RX-7's have been nicely styled.
I would love it if they put a Coyote motor in a sleek 2 seater like that of the RX-7.
Change the name if need be.
I still think the FD is one of the best looking sports cars ever made. It's what keeps me coming back to Mazda. I've never been crazy for anything else they make.
But all the RX-7's have been nicely styled.
11-13-14, 08:03 AM
#38
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If Mazda abandons the rotary motor they still need a flagship car.
I would love it if they put a Coyote motor in a sleek 2 seater like that of the RX-7.
Change the name if need be.
I still think the FD is one of the best looking sports cars ever made. It's what keeps me coming back to Mazda. I've never been crazy for anything else they make.
But all the RX-7's have been nicely styled.
I would love it if they put a Coyote motor in a sleek 2 seater like that of the RX-7.
Change the name if need be.
I still think the FD is one of the best looking sports cars ever made. It's what keeps me coming back to Mazda. I've never been crazy for anything else they make.
But all the RX-7's have been nicely styled.
11-13-14, 09:49 AM
#40
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I know what would win me over but not sure how much the cost would be. A very lightweight small body like an rx7, with good components on the car. CF brake system, a straight forward bare bones electronics system. Well designed suspension to handle very well and is a little forgiving. Large mouth front opening, could be N/A or turbo, doesn't matter. The feedback and ergonomics of the car would be great for someone 6'2" 220lbs. The pedal placement great for heel toe downshifting on a H style manual transmission with 6 speed. A solid feeling transmission with great in gear out of gear feedback (clicks into position). Very robust drivetrain and differential to hold much more power than stock levels when modified. Great lighting out the front, easy to see in 360 degrees. Car is ergomically good and a drivers car. Power delivery has a flat torque curve, can drive the car fast at high rpms and low rpms, but also is refined when cruising. Clutch is stiff and has an acceptable engagement zone at the top or middle of the clutch push. Car is designed with low drag for high speeds. Car feels lightweight and docile, dances around with input, yet rides on the softer side soaking up bumps on the road. Comes with wide wheels and tires factory.
I'd go with a 996 or 997 GT3
Price range 50 to 175k
Perhaps the engineer in me will disagree. I am all about value, looks, performance, etc.
The GTR is an overpriced complex machine which I would never even look at. I am not able to fix most of the stuff on the car, let alone the insurance costs and what about registration on these new cars. My state index the cost to register off of age and price. I don't see myself ever buying a new car in most of these states with insanely high registration rates. I am not paying $1,000 on an expensive new car. even $750/yr is outrageous. My rx7 to register is $68/yr not to mention insurance.
The pre-OBD2 cars are so easy to modify, there is no worries about all the emissions crap on the car, all the complex junk, computers, etc. I chose an rx7 because of the simplicity of it, the uniqueness, price, and performance.
I would avoid most new cars because of the price, ununiqueness, and complexity. The joy of being able to control a beast is fun, a GTR, EVO, etc controls you.
Name some new cars that look unique. I think they all almost look the same. The cheaper models are all knock offs of each other, lots of models share chassis or engines, etc, etc.
I think I would rather have a 63 corvette or something over most of the new cars.
The cheapest car for level of performance is a ZR1. The ZR1 will make a GTR look pansy.
I just went to my county in CO to see how much a $105,000 new car would cost to register.
Estimate = $1,967.25
Taxable Value (85% of MSRP) = $89,250.00
multiplied by Year of Vehicle Rate = .021
plus the estimated cost by Type of Vehicle = $93.00
ESTIMATED TOTAL = $1,967.25
If the car was built in 2010, it would cost $896.25. screw that.
The GTR is an overpriced complex machine which I would never even look at. I am not able to fix most of the stuff on the car, let alone the insurance costs and what about registration on these new cars. My state index the cost to register off of age and price. I don't see myself ever buying a new car in most of these states with insanely high registration rates. I am not paying $1,000 on an expensive new car. even $750/yr is outrageous. My rx7 to register is $68/yr not to mention insurance.
The pre-OBD2 cars are so easy to modify, there is no worries about all the emissions crap on the car, all the complex junk, computers, etc. I chose an rx7 because of the simplicity of it, the uniqueness, price, and performance.
I would avoid most new cars because of the price, ununiqueness, and complexity. The joy of being able to control a beast is fun, a GTR, EVO, etc controls you.
Name some new cars that look unique. I think they all almost look the same. The cheaper models are all knock offs of each other, lots of models share chassis or engines, etc, etc.
I think I would rather have a 63 corvette or something over most of the new cars.
The cheapest car for level of performance is a ZR1. The ZR1 will make a GTR look pansy.
I just went to my county in CO to see how much a $105,000 new car would cost to register.
Estimate = $1,967.25
Taxable Value (85% of MSRP) = $89,250.00
multiplied by Year of Vehicle Rate = .021
plus the estimated cost by Type of Vehicle = $93.00
ESTIMATED TOTAL = $1,967.25
If the car was built in 2010, it would cost $896.25. screw that.
I hate to waste money and owning expensive sports car is a huge waste of money but as David said if you want to experience a great modern car you really don't have a choice and the GTR is the best deal on paper.
The GTR nismo was 11 seconds quicker around the ring than the ZR1 so I wouldn't call it a pansy
List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The market for the rotary isn't there IMO. Yes, we all own the rx7 and love the car to death, but how many of us actually bought the car new and anywhere full retail price when new? The car today would be around $60K, let's say they can sell one for around 40-50K. Who the heck is going to buy a $40-50K middle of the market japanese car?
I am 33 yrs old and know this age group pretty well. I am the least successful of my graduating college class with a good amount of money. The friends I know drive a lamborghini, a large pick up truck, and the one who owns his business drives a tundra. The people my age group at work drive cheap cars, as do I, and own second cars like rx7's. We purchased them because of the value.
There is no way I would buy a new supra or rx9 or whatever it may be, the price point/value is to high/little. The older generation (baby boomers) love the american made cars. vette's etc. The gen x who are very well off, which isn't a ton of people, most likely buy the high end stuff or nothing really in the middle. Most of the metal lovers drive what is logical for a family and skip the fast cars. they seem to not be too interested in the sports cars as much as the older gen. I just don't see a market that will do amazing for the middle to high priced import japanese cars.
The rx7 is such an amazing car because its so well priced for its value/performance. such a hobby car.
The Miata is crap, S2000 is crap, EVO, STI is crap. These cars do well cause they are cheap and appeal to the younger gen of japanese anime. They are just cheap enough, but when looking at them, they are so damn ugly. The s2000 and miata are too small for most american people.
There is and always will be a market for high performance fun sports cars and Mazda could and should be one of the leaders in this market.
As Pete said Mazda has no ***** and that's why they will always be a bottom drawer car company.
I like the S2K a lot but I like small light weight cars so it's right up my alley. It's actually one of my favorite cars and I used to own one back in 01 or so but coming from a modded FD it just didn't hold a candle to it so I sold it and bought another FD. It was a great car but Honda played the same hand over and over and ruined/diluted the S2K market. I can't remember any other car make or model that was designed exactly the same for 10 years. Don't bring up that engine change which made the car worse or the CR which was basically a body kit. Bottomline: honda effed up a really good thing and it's a shame that the other car companies don't believe in or stand behind their sports cars the same way Porsche has. Dropping a car model like the S2K and the NSX was completely idiotic and is no different than Mazda dropping the RX7. You build what many consider to be one of the best sports cars on the planet and decide to stop making it.............IDIOTS!!!!!!!
Even though most of us drive around in trucks and sedans some still fantasize and read about fun cars which is why there is still no better way to market your company than having a top tier sports car in your line up.
I truly hope the new miata can carry the sports car banner for Mazda but IMO it's not going to happen because a 2200 pound 150 HP car isn't getting it done in 2015 or 16. I don't think it's a car that will sell very well unless it's 200 HP or more and when the comparisons come out it will still get it's *** kicked by most everything on paper which is what matters. The mags will still go on and on about what a great drive it is but at the end of the day if you want a great drive you can buy any old effing miata. On the other hand if you want jaw dropping great performance buy a GTR hehe.
What this market needs is both performance and fun to drive which is the exact shoe mazda could fill and it would sell like hot cakes. Someone is going to make that car in the next 5 years and mazda is going to be kicking themselves. Maybe it will be an aluminum chassis mustang boss.
11-13-14, 10:08 AM
#41
I always disagree with the "market isn't there" argument. What the market isn't there for, is stuff that sucks. I'm not surprised that many of the noted Japanese sportscars are dying, because there just isn't enough value there.
It's not like the 370Z is some world class handling car, it's a fat ugly pig, so you can't really find a reason to excuse the fact that it's slow and small. Likewise, I would characterize the S2000 as a nice handling car, but you drive it and it feels like it wouldn't pull the skin off a grape. If somebody had been smart enough to but the for-real-deal STi motor in the BRZ, you might have something.
Somebody pointed out that US brands are are owning that Market... selling stuff that's actually got some *****... like Camaros, Mustangs, etc. The thing is, these cars aren't even super-shitty handlers like they used to be, some of the hotter models are very track oriented...
And, they're frankly cooler looking (if you like that sort of thing). Is anyone really EXCITED looking at an S2000, or 370Z? There's no economic excuse for shitty design. I'd love to see Nissan leverage their heritage in the same way and build something that reminds me in some way of a 70's 240Z... maybe in cool colors. The new thing might as well be a Hyundai.
That Toyota prototype is a little over the top, but I could see how it could be refined for production into something pretty bad-***. I actually tend to like more subtle, understated designs (like the FD), but the stuff currently being produced by Japan is terrible. the LFA was a snoozer. The new Miata I actually like, but it'll still be a moving chicane at track days.
It's not like the 370Z is some world class handling car, it's a fat ugly pig, so you can't really find a reason to excuse the fact that it's slow and small. Likewise, I would characterize the S2000 as a nice handling car, but you drive it and it feels like it wouldn't pull the skin off a grape. If somebody had been smart enough to but the for-real-deal STi motor in the BRZ, you might have something.
Somebody pointed out that US brands are are owning that Market... selling stuff that's actually got some *****... like Camaros, Mustangs, etc. The thing is, these cars aren't even super-shitty handlers like they used to be, some of the hotter models are very track oriented...
And, they're frankly cooler looking (if you like that sort of thing). Is anyone really EXCITED looking at an S2000, or 370Z? There's no economic excuse for shitty design. I'd love to see Nissan leverage their heritage in the same way and build something that reminds me in some way of a 70's 240Z... maybe in cool colors. The new thing might as well be a Hyundai.
That Toyota prototype is a little over the top, but I could see how it could be refined for production into something pretty bad-***. I actually tend to like more subtle, understated designs (like the FD), but the stuff currently being produced by Japan is terrible. the LFA was a snoozer. The new Miata I actually like, but it'll still be a moving chicane at track days.
11-13-14, 10:31 AM
#42
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I always disagree with the "market isn't there" argument. What the market isn't there for, is stuff that sucks. I'm not surprised that many of the noted Japanese sportscars are dying, because there just isn't enough value there.
It's not like the 370Z is some world class handling car, it's a fat ugly pig, so you can't really find a reason to excuse the fact that it's slow and small. Likewise, I would characterize the S2000 as a nice handling car, but you drive it and it feels like it wouldn't pull the skin off a grape. If somebody had been smart enough to but the for-real-deal STi motor in the BRZ, you might have something.
Somebody pointed out that US brands are are owning that Market... selling stuff that's actually got some *****... like Camaros, Mustangs, etc. The thing is, these cars aren't even super-shitty handlers like they used to be, some of the hotter models are very track oriented...
And, they're frankly cooler looking (if you like that sort of thing). Is anyone really EXCITED looking at an S2000, or 370Z? There's no economic excuse for shitty design. I'd love to see Nissan leverage their heritage in the same way and build something that reminds me in some way of a 70's 240Z... maybe in cool colors. The new thing might as well be a Hyundai.
That Toyota prototype is a little over the top, but I could see how it could be refined for production into something pretty bad-***. I actually tend to like more subtle, understated designs (like the FD), but the stuff currently being produced by Japan is terrible. the LFA was a snoozer. The new Miata I actually like, but it'll still be a moving chicane at track days.
It's not like the 370Z is some world class handling car, it's a fat ugly pig, so you can't really find a reason to excuse the fact that it's slow and small. Likewise, I would characterize the S2000 as a nice handling car, but you drive it and it feels like it wouldn't pull the skin off a grape. If somebody had been smart enough to but the for-real-deal STi motor in the BRZ, you might have something.
Somebody pointed out that US brands are are owning that Market... selling stuff that's actually got some *****... like Camaros, Mustangs, etc. The thing is, these cars aren't even super-shitty handlers like they used to be, some of the hotter models are very track oriented...
And, they're frankly cooler looking (if you like that sort of thing). Is anyone really EXCITED looking at an S2000, or 370Z? There's no economic excuse for shitty design. I'd love to see Nissan leverage their heritage in the same way and build something that reminds me in some way of a 70's 240Z... maybe in cool colors. The new thing might as well be a Hyundai.
That Toyota prototype is a little over the top, but I could see how it could be refined for production into something pretty bad-***. I actually tend to like more subtle, understated designs (like the FD), but the stuff currently being produced by Japan is terrible. the LFA was a snoozer. The new Miata I actually like, but it'll still be a moving chicane at track days.
Porsche sold 10,000 911's last year and Mazda sold 5700 miatas, what does that tell you?
11-13-14, 12:24 PM
#43
If going retro worked with Ford, Dodge and Chevy...it would also work for Nissan, Toyota and Mazda.
Imagine a new retro version of the 70's Mazda 929 coupe (rx-4 chasis) with a Miata turbo engine.
Or a Nisaan 240z retro model.
All the design coming out of Japan now is just futuristic crap. Why didn't the Frs come out as a modern retro version of the 70's Celica?
Look at the 80's and 90's design for the Mustangs and look at them now. They just get it. Going retro is good and it sells.
I wish the Japanese car makers had more *****. And I wish Mazda was one of them. Who would not want a brand new 929 coupe?
11-13-14, 01:50 PM
#45
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Exactly! And not just Nissan.
If going retro worked with Ford, Dodge and Chevy...it would also work for Nissan, Toyota and Mazda.
Imagine a new retro version of the 70's Mazda 929 coupe (rx-4 chasis) with a Miata turbo engine.
Or a Nisaan 240z retro model.
All the design coming out of Japan now is just futuristic crap. Why didn't the Frs come out as a modern retro version of the 70's Celica?
Look at the 80's and 90's design for the Mustangs and look at them now. They just get it. Going retro is good and it sells.
I wish the Japanese car makers had more *****. And I wish Mazda was one of them. Who would not want a brand new 929 coupe?
If going retro worked with Ford, Dodge and Chevy...it would also work for Nissan, Toyota and Mazda.
Imagine a new retro version of the 70's Mazda 929 coupe (rx-4 chasis) with a Miata turbo engine.
Or a Nisaan 240z retro model.
All the design coming out of Japan now is just futuristic crap. Why didn't the Frs come out as a modern retro version of the 70's Celica?
Look at the 80's and 90's design for the Mustangs and look at them now. They just get it. Going retro is good and it sells.
I wish the Japanese car makers had more *****. And I wish Mazda was one of them. Who would not want a brand new 929 coupe?
11-13-14, 01:55 PM
#46
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I do think this thread is onto something. You could make some retro cars that could come with upgrades on them to make them "super better".
E30 M3, Datsun 510, 3rd gen rx7, 63 corvette looking, some of the old mustangs would sell well (I don't personally like them), etc.
E30 M3, Datsun 510, 3rd gen rx7, 63 corvette looking, some of the old mustangs would sell well (I don't personally like them), etc.
11-13-14, 03:10 PM
#49
I do enjoy these conversations with fellow car enthusiast but I think we have seen the end of the lightweight performance only sports car that comes with serious track prowess and performance on a common mans budget.
The days of awesome Japanese sports cars is gone and because of various political trends we will be left with big bloated domestics and anemic Japanese cars.
The closest thing within budget right now is the C7.
You could also work the used Porsche Market.
That's pretty much it.
The days of awesome Japanese sports cars is gone and because of various political trends we will be left with big bloated domestics and anemic Japanese cars.
The closest thing within budget right now is the C7.
You could also work the used Porsche Market.
That's pretty much it.
11-13-14, 03:58 PM
#50
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we've been out road racing for the last 12 years now, and if i brought my stop watch and started posting times, you might be surprised.
the driver is a huge part of the equation, and a high hp, really fast on paper car is really way above the level of the driver most of the time. these big fast cars usually are faster than a miata, but not by nearly as much as the numbers would suggest.