here's some info on the summer. I emailed Richard and he has them in stock. I'm still waiting on his response about my idea of using the summer as a stand alone unit to get the 0-5V summed signal into my collingmist kit vari-cool controller.

 

This sounds like the winner for those using stock ECUs and re-chips.

I know most of the discussion has been around making big power, but some of us are absolutely keen on getting AI in their cars now.

Dave

 

For me, it's an awesome system. Once you've decided on the ratio of water to inject and the fuel injector duty cycle it will start to inject at, it's pretty much fit and forget.
I can see the advantages of a mappable system but, for me, it's a step too far. The Summer provides the ability to inject a set ratio of water/methanol to fuel. As the fuel requirements go up, so the AI quantities rise in proportion to it. For me, that's one less thing to worry about when mapping.
I have to echo too the previous comments on Aquamist's customer support. In my experience it's unrivalled in this (or any other) industry.

Steve

 

"should I get a 4 bar map sensor for my setup or will I be able to get reference from the built in 48 psi FJO map sensor?"

the FJO 4 bar MAP sensor is completely internal to the module and, as such, there is no way to tap into a signal wire.

FJO UPDATE

FJO has not as yet shipped to Alamo Motorsports. they are finalizing the boost control today, should get supplier prices mid week so they can finalize pricing. they are including a low level LED and have uprated the inflow tubing. they expect to ship within a matter of days.

i had a very interesting tech conversion w them. they spent a year developing their solenoid and it was all about atomisation. their concept is that water needs to be injected as finely as possible. this encourages atomisation which actually encourages significantly lower IAT (intake air temperature)... conventional wisdom is water cools mainly in the combustion chamber. FJO says they are getting alot of cooling in the runners due to their less than 60 micron spray.

most other agricultural nozzles or spray gun nozzles are designed for an 18 inch target (!) or a wide spray pattern when the target is really only 1.5+ inches.

add some meth in (windshield washer solvent "bug-juice") and you have wicked atomisation. buy the 40 below stuff. 'probably hard to find in Miami.

does their system work? how about a street driven camaro w 2 turbos running 7.8 at 175 in the quarter on 91 PUMP GAS and their HD AI using BUG JUICE!

AQUAMIST

a legitimate HD player w the summer module. let's hear from more users.

DUAL FUEL CELL

a sticky wicket at the moment.

i rough measured the available FD space. the area is about 24 wide behind the subframe and opens up to 34 inches at the rear of the fuel tank. the longitudinal dimension is about 20 inches. total avail height, from the bottom of the tank to the top of the cargo floor is 13 inches. that's what we have to work with. and. yes, there's an inch or two of additional wiggle. (move the muffler guard etc).

ATL will entertain a custom built to spec setup for alcohol and pump for around $3000. uh, count me out.

RJS makes plastic fuel cells that are not SCCA approved. they also make metal containers for the cells. make no mistake about it... these are not fuel cells like i used during my racing days. a real "fuel cell" can be driven over by a tank. i wouldn't do it w the RJS items.

there are a couple of RJS cells that might work. they make a 15 and 22 gallon cell size. they also make an 8 and 5 gallon size for alcohol. around 140 a piece plus another 100 for a metal container.

they really don't quite fit in our space.

so maybe someone out there would like to step up and fab something... a custom side by side tank... 20 gallons of pump, 8 gallons of alcohol.

i have my $500 check ready.

any ideas out there?

howard

 

Another member on here suggested this:

Why not partition off about 4 gallons of the stock FD fuel tank and run that as your meth reserve and then you still have 16 gallons left for primary fuel?

 

Because the FD is a glutton for fuel .

thewird

 

I went through the development of the AQ Summer with Richard on my car. I think I was one one of, if not the, first person to have it working on an FD. It was quite a process.

I will echo efiniste... The summer allows you to set a ratio of W/A to your fuel map and forget about it. It allows you the ability to just tune one map to tune in both systems. So I set water at 17% of fuel, dial in the summer to my injectors, tune the fuel map and bam! Works great. The AQ flow guage tells me that the system is working and flowing correctly and when the flow drops too low (clogged fliter, busted line pre flow sensor) it cuts back to wastegate only pressure...ie turns off your boost controllor solenoid. If the flow goes too high above range (ie. cracked hose after the flow sensor or other similar leak) it does the same. This is a pretty good fail safe in my opinion. The gauge, with the summer, and the fail safe make it a high quality system. Right up there with the best on the market. I am sure Richard has made some improvements to it since I got out of the game almost a year ago now.

The gauge also has a level sensor, so that if your tank runs down to empty the fail safe trips as well.

Once it was tuned in and working as it was designed (this took a lot of work on the summer, and flow sensor) it was a rock solid system. I went through a couple of versions of the summer and the plastic that the flow sensor was originally made of wasn't up to the FD engine bay heat so Richard had another one made out of delrin that held up. He said a metal one was in the works. The summer was tough because of the way the FD injectors are staged...but Richard figured this out too with a little feedback from myself and others.

The system as sold today would be rock solid from the onset. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend AQ to anyone.

 

Thread copied, pruned renamed and posted in new member technical as well.

 

Excellent work Howard!

If you don't feel my post is appropriate for the topics you are wanting to cover in this thread please feel free to delete it.

Here's my situation, was wondering if water injection might be a possibility for me. I am fairly new to rotaries and am going through mine right now. My goals, unlike a lot of the posters, are much more boring. While I have a ported engine, FMIC, DP, and 3" RB exhaust I am going to run stock twins at near stock boost levels, maybe 12 p.s.i. once in a while, maybe not. Won't race it, just drive it on the street. I am content with the performance and would much rather have a car which is easy to drive, hopefully not too tempermental, and which I can take on a road trip without worrying about it blowing up or leaving me stranded.

It seems that for $350 to $500 I can get a reasonable water injection system, maybe it's considered entry level but it sure seems like it would be capable of doing everything I am wanting done - reliable, economical to operate, safe for the engine, and would help keep the internals clean.

What I don't know is how much water would this system use. If I am cruising on the highway, say 70 or 75 mph, would I be boosting at a level in which I would be injecting water?

On a trip, with a 1 1/2 gallon tank, could I anticipate having enough water to last a tank of gas? I know there are ways to calculate all this with injector sizes, duty cycles, etc. but I don't know when to calculate turning the system on, how much to inject, and I don't know what to anticipate for cruising boost levels (bought my car non running). I was hoping for more of a "seat of the pants" type response from someone with experience in all of this.

So is there a benefit in AI for me in my situation? And would it be worth the costs involved?

Thanks for any information you can provide.

Jeff

 

Sure ai would be of benefit for you. Keep the engine cooler under boost and keep it clean as well as safe guard against bad gas. Under cruise you won't be using any water so it will last fine for you between tanks.

 

'Dude" speaks the truth.

Jeff, you are actually the target profile for AI and this thread.

consider an un-modified FD.....

159 cubic inches displacement.

255 flywheel horsepower

that's 1.6 horsepower per cubic inch!

comparatively the 500 hp 427 cubic inch Corvette ZO6 featuring titanium connecting rods, a dry sump oil system, a hand built motor, (i could go on for more than a page as to the engine's tech) makes...

1.17 horsepower per cubic inch!

hp per cubic inch relates directly to the generation of Combustion Chamber Pressure (CCP) & heat.

there is no mystery why the turbo rotary fails... it is just cranked up by the turbos and simply needs some cooling help which it really doesn't get w the excess gasoline.

throw some water at it and things change.

so readers running an un-modded FD are in need of AI and a simple water system will do the trick. the system has come a lonq way from a bunch of Home Depot parts.

so pick your system... spend in the $400 area and you are set.

as to tank size...

AI is there to combat high CCP which only happens under boost. since you aren't in boost cruising at 75 mph the system is inactive.

AI functions just like your turbo.

it is there when you want it. for non racing activities you can easily go w whatever size tank comes w your kit.

good luck... and 'loved Los Alamos,

howard

 

Is there a complete kit (with parts list and everything) that utilizes the aforementioned summing module? Or is this something that has been pieced together? Does it work with a boost controller like the FJO kit (besides the safety function)?

The summing module is very interesting. Is there more information about how it works besides that wiring pinout?

 

FYI, there is a special deal at Coolingmist right now.

Here's the thread on it: https://www.rx7club.com/classifieds-violations-265/coolingmist-progressive-trunkmount-special-sale-815937/

Just bought the 4-120 system for my FD, as my goals are somewhat more humble than many participating in this thread.

My FD is a single turbo autox and track car. It currently makes 350 RWHP, and ultimately should be close to 400. I will be injecting water only, for a number of reasons.

This is certainly feasible without AI, but I want it for the same reasons you do: insurance against detonation, keep the internals clean.

The Coolingmist system is $350 right now, which is $250 less than it was a few weeks ago.

 

Yes there is a complete kit from Aquamist that utilizes the summing module, the HFS-5. In non-rotary kits, Aquamist supplies a module they call the FIA2, which does the same thing for cars with standard injector staging. I mentioned the fail safe up above...Aquamist has it built in to it's system brain, and yes it cuts boost when one of a variety of parameters are out of spec. It works great, and probably very similarly to the FJO system.

The summing module is pretty simple really in concept but a little more complicated in application, it takes a duty cycle reading from a primary and a secondary injector. It scales this value based on the injector size which you adjust into each input. It then sends a scaled total summed signal out to the high speed valve that meters the flow to your W/I system. The pressure behind the HSV, stays at pump pressure (relatively) thus response of the system is very fast because the HSV operates like a fuel injector, with extremely fast response times.

As the duty cycle of the injectors increase, so too does the duty cycle of the HSV...and thus you have more flow to your jets, which is perfectly proportioned to the increase in fuel need of your engine. Jet sizing is important as well in this setup.

 

I am sorry I havent posted my experience with the Aquamist system but the car is still on the shop and it is very far from my house so I have almost no time to go see it.
So far the shop has told me that the system works great and that ( as cozmo and efiniste said) it is a "set it up and forget" system. The gauge inside the cockpit is nice too since you can see how much of the water/methanol is injecting at any moment and it tells you if the level is tool low.
I originally was going to buy an Aquamist 2D system that works almost the same way as the HFS-5 but Richard told me to stay away from it since I am aiming to get around 500 whp and at that level, the 2D doesnt supply enough juice. But if anyone interested is loking for something less than 450 whp then the 2D may be a good choice.
It is a little disconcerting the fact that the HFS-5 doesnt show in their website but I bought it directly from Richard here in the forum and he gave me a special price since by knowing that it is for a rotary engine, then the FIA2 doesnt get included in the package and gets replaced by the Summer.
I dont know if the prices remain the same but I bought it for $900 and after ordering it, it took them 3 to 4 days to make it and after that it came to US from UK in about 4 days. I dont know how in hell they can deliver so fast.
Anyway I will be able to post some more info as soon as I get my car back.
Leo

 

the aquamist setup sounds very interesting for a FD. so it sounds like it should work well on a road course with the way it works, being that one would be on and off throttle a lot in a turn, but does anyone have experience with this system on a track? i do like the set it and forget it idea, and that it can still be monitored via a gauge to let you know its working correctly, but the price compared to the new FJO unit is a little bit of a let down IMO. as always, the more info the better.

 

I'll be on track with mine on the 20th, I'll report back afterwards.

Steve

 

I have a few questions. I'm an AI noobie in the middle of installing AI with a gt35r. Will be running 50/50 water/meth (by mass). I don't expect answers to all of these, but they are certainly questions I have been pondering.

1) Will the 2D kit be sufficient for 400-450whp? People keep saying 400whp, but I may be as high as 450whp at times.

2) Can the AQ summer be bought separately and used with the Aquamist 2D kit?

3) Would the 2D kit benefit from a different nozzle that sprays a finer mist?

4) What is the 'best' (finest spraying) nozzle capable of supplying enough water/meth for 400whp and operating on the Aquamist 2D pump? Where can I get it?

 

I think you'd be better directing these questions to Richard Lamb at Aquamist.
I can't answer any of them with 100% certainty but I'm pretty sure the Aquamist own brand pump that comes with the 2d won't flow enough for 400/450bhp on a rotary. The HFS kits come with a Shurflo brand, higher flowing pump.

Steve

///yes Steve, that is good advice. just email Richard at AQ///

 

I've already bought the 2d kit . from reading I'm doing in the AI section, it seems that the more water I use, the less pump requirements.

Maybe I'll just use water, which should probably be fine for a 400whp car. I'd get the reliability and steam cleaning. I could work on other ways to drop the IATs, like an A2W IC.

I just to be sure I'm getting the most IAT decrease possible on 100% water, which is really all about the atomization caused by the nozzle. I wish I could just write a check and someone would do it perfectly for me, lol.

 

I know that the 2d isn't really designed for high Methanol concentrations. I wouldn't use anything more than say washer fluid (which is like 20% alcohol) with it. 50/50 and above concentrations require different pump seals and again Richard is a good resource here.

To get the most IAT reduction with pure water you have to inject pre compressor. I used Aquamist's smallest jet pre comp, worked great. It has, as good of atomization as you can get without using air to further break up the droplet. Richard was engineering a unique jet mount that put the jet in the intake path (instead of in the pipe) shooting into the oncoming air. This would be ideal for a pure water setup. Using more alcohol will decrease the IAT more effectively, but offer less detonation supression per unit volume. Again you have to get in contact with Richard to see how much alcohol is safe with the 2d. He is incredibly helpful and I am sure will have answers to your questions as well as good suggestions as to how to set it up properly for your needs.

I think Rich, Goodfellafd3s, also has that 2d system up and running and is around the power level you want. You might try to PM him some questions. I know he has an install thread on here if you search for it, it might also inspire some ideas and have some answers to your questions.

 

I have my preturbo WI kit installed in my car now and will be testing it over the next several days. Unfortunately I don't have an EGT probe hooked up yet so testing impressions will be left to "seat of the pants", and the slow stock AIT sensor. In the meantime I took a cell phone video of the system pressurized and the filter disconnected so you can see the spray. It creates a very fine mist. Click the link for the video.

http://s10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...t=Video003.flv

And here's more info and pics on my WI setup. https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/going-make-my-own-wi-kit-807016/

 

i keep checking back on alamo's website to see if this kit is available yet, and the verdict is no. btw, thats a pretty sweet system dudemaaan.

 

I was just curious to see if you had pics of your torn down motor to compare to the jdm one? The A/I systems are so interesting and I'm learning more and more everyday. I also find it interesting and quite odd that it is somewhat a newly discovered thing for rotories when all the sti and evo guys in my area use this stuff religiously...its so weird how the engine that would benefit the most from this is somewhat the last in the game to use on the same scale that the sti/evo guys do (at least in my area).

O and thanks for all the info and input from everybody in this thread, its really helping my learning process for my build.

 

I am guessing the reason why it is being "Just" discovered by the Rotary community ( that means just discovered by normal people like you or me and not the people that race for a leaving that knew this for a long time) compared to the STI or EVO's community may be because there are 20 times more of those cars than rotaries and therefore more people tuning, racing and looking for new ways to get the most out of their engines.
Anyway, good that I got to know it when I started owning my first FD
Leo