Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

FJO HD-AI availability

as you may know (post one) i have been testing w a beta version of the 2nd iteration of FJO's HD-AI.

FJO has yet to post details of the system on their website.

as mentioned earlier, FJO was at the PRI show in Orlando last week and i was able to speak w them upon their return yesterday.

FJO delayed the marketing of their system as they were working a few bugs out of their boost controller which is in the AI module.

FJO has now packaged the AI system as a "kit" and has, i am told, 100 available for sale in early January... first come.

Alamo motorsports will be the retailer for the initial kits.

http://www.alamomotorsports.com/FJO/waterinjection.html

(please again note the details on the above Alamo page are for the first iteration of HD-AI controllers)

i believe, that pricing for the kit will be approx $700 tank included.

if you have been reading this thread carefully you may recall that i fixtured a regulator and return line and used a different non FJO pump.

it is FJO's firm belief, based on 2 years testing, that if you run water or as much as 60% meth 40% water you do not need the regulator or return line and that their pump will work excellently.

i totally agree and may also replace the Bosch pump w the FJO pump.

so if you run water or a water meth combo you just bolt in the pump, solenoid/injector, run the lines ( i really like their lines and very high quality fittings), find a place for the tank and you are in business. the X-Y grid is programmed with your laptop thru a USB port.

if you are interested contact Alamo.

and no, i am not interested in facilitating a group buy. my function is to give you info and be of help re the rotary.

further, i have PM'd the other two HD-AI vendors re this thread and have invited their particpation.

hc

dial8

iTrader: (4)

I wouldn't say that, I think what Howard has been saying since the beginning is that water is only good up to a certain HP because unlike Meth it doesn't burn and to compensate for higher temps at higher boost with a high CCP the amount of water you'd need to inject would be counter productive. I think water is good for guys who aren't as ambitious as Ernie and don't want to spend money like Jim .

twin7r1

iTrader: (1)

We must be blowing up the phone lines at Alamo because it took me 6 tried to even get through to their phone lines haha. The representative I spoke to said they aren't taking orders until FJO releases the kit and that is expected to be at the beginning of the year.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

So this FJO kit is also going to include a boost controller? So for $700 bucks, I don't need to spend $400 ($250 used) on a Greddy Profec... AND I get the water/meth injection system?

If I am reading this incorrectly, please tell me, because I am going to jump on this faster than Rosie O'Donnell can inhale a cupcake!

Or is the AI module separate from the AI "kit"?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

the boost controller is part of the AI module. if you go back to my early posts in the thread you will see a picture of the vacuum pressure line going from the module to my UIM.

one of the neat things is that if the AI injector rail pressure falls below your inputted set point the boost controller cuts the boost to spring pressure.

also, if you use their wideband and the AI module, if the wideband goes lean it can talk to the AI module's boost controller and release the boost.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Howard do you know what is going to come in the kit? Are the parts in any way different then the 1st gen system?

Does their boost controller have an external unit so we can change the boost without a laptop?

thewird

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

It seems that this setup is going to be a lot of bang for the buck.

So it will be a:
Boost Controller
HD AI system
And if you use their wideband, it can be another failsafe for your engine...

Sounds good to me.

FierceAlien

iTrader: (6)

Sounds better then good to me. I may start contemplating on selling my techedge and replace it with an FJO wideband, and pick up the AI system as well. Heck i can sell my Profec B gen 1 as well if i do go for this. Damn

That sounds like a very nice package deal.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

The only thing left in the open is whether or not there is a remote method for adjusting the boost, or if a laptop interface is required. Either way doesn't bother me as long as there is the capability for adding a high/low boost switch remotely.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

I was thinking about selling my PLX m-300 and profec b as well since this would have everything lol.

thewird

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

boost has three settings: spring, hi, lo. initially set via USB, and after using a 3 position toggle switch.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

this is the main screen... since i run the FJO wideband the AFR is displayed. the vacuum/boost PSI is upper right.

just below the PSI is the TPS reading in terms of %. i am idling at the low V range reading so it reads zero.

the shorter mid strip reading zero is pump pressure. my setup triggers the pump and pressure just as i go into boost.

the pump light is out but the system is on shown by the green "normal" light. when the pump is on the "active" light illuminates.

as does the "pump" light.

below the pump light are three fault lights, pump pressure, lean boost cut and Over boost cut.

the unit can cut boost if it exceeds whatever you specify as well if the AFRs exceed whatever you specify.

you can log all of the above readings and play them back on this panel or a strip chart.

i pretty much set it and forget it and tune off my PFC/Datalogit.

hc

thewird

iTrader: (8)

How is the FJO unit picking up the RPM signal?

thewird

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

That answers it. I am getting both as soon as they are available.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

rpm signal can be located either at your ECU or the igniter.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Is it spliced in or are you using the pickup? I can never get a good RPM signal on the dyno using a pickup.

thewird

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i use 3M elec taps rather than solder or a pickup.

as long as they are the proper AWG i never have had a problem.

the apexi AVC-R instruction booklet says don't use them but i have installed a number of AVC-Rs w elec taps w excellent results.

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i have just spent 2 hours editing this thread.

from 172 posts to 71.

while it pained me to delete alot of compliments i felt that, although very welcomed by me, it was asking alot of readers who just wanted to find out about the rotary "fix." a big "Thank You" from me to all who were kind enough to say thanks.

i also edited out some superb tech posts that were, unfortunately, off the thrust of this thread, they would fit well in the Auxiliary Injection section.

we are not looking for new ways to invent the wheel in this thread. we are not attempting to understand every last bit of chemical AI dynamics.

this is the 3rd Gen section not the Aux Inj Section. many readers are in their initial exposure stage to AI and the subject is too important to the long term health of the turbo'd rotary to be lost in alot of over-tech.

the mission here is to understand the problem, understand the solution and get AI onboard.

my view is that the last 70 posts have covered the problem and solution.

ideally in my view the ongoing thread should deal with the various vendors kit offerings and results from FD AI owners.

my condolences to all whose posts were deleted. i feel for you, but understand i didn't really want to delete the "thank you-s" so we are even... and the readers benefit.

hc

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

Question pertaining to the Boost Controller function of the FJO unit:

Does it come with the solenoid(s) and everything necessary to control boost properly. Will it be a problem for sequential twins?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

"Question pertaining to the Boost Controller function of the FJO unit:

Does it come with the solenoid(s) and everything necessary to control boost properly. Will it be a problem for sequential twins?"

i will check re the solenoid. they do make a solenoid and i have used it...
as far as controlling sequential. i am going to give you an "i am not sure on this but"... AIR, the sequential part of the OEM system can only be adjusted using the two "pills" if you were non sequential the FJO unit would be capable of adjusting boost.

since the FJO AI unit is capable of cutting boost should a lack of AI injectant pressure arise, or in an overboost situation, it is my opinion you could use these features by adding it into your stock system even though you used the "pill/OEM" boost control.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

here are some resource links. there's a wealth of info here for you.

HD-AI vendors:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/index.html
http://www.coolingmist.com/
http://www.fjoracing.com/index.php

AI vendors
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/
http://www.alkycontrol.com/
http://www.snowperformance.net/

AI Forum links
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/alc...-propane-tech/

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

WATER, METH or MIX?

only realities here...

as AI threads evolve, or perhaps devolve, lots of band width is soaked up re the above question.

we have already covered the differences between the injectants so this post will focus on what you can achieve. perhaps it's main mission will be to explain what you can't achieve.

my objective will be to have this post be a sidebar covering the subject so the rest of the thread can move on to actual testimonials and specific products benefits and features.

as such, i welcome ongoing posts on this specific subject and will, when they merit, fold them in. that way, readers can get what they want on the subject without having to read page after page of disjointed info.

the post will start w general summary comments and then have a trailing subsection with more techy stuff if needed.

so feel free to post on the subject and you will either get pasted into this post or be deleted

WATER

if you will recall, this thread is about fixing the turbo'd rotary's penchant for meltdown. If you don’t recall I suggest you re-read post one.

even in stock 255 hp form we are asking alot out of a 159 cu inch motor.

when you create the high CCP to make 255 out of such a small displacement you run the risk of knock and ensuing failure of the somewhat fragile (compared to a piston engine) apex seals.

how many FDs still have the original shortblock?

so we have a heat problem. this thread is primarily an effort to offer a solution to reliability and only secondarily more HP.

water, as a choice of AI injectant, is at the top of the list as to reliability solutions.

ability to cool expressed as latent heat:

gasoline (all)...900
methanol alcohol...3340
water...5801

Water per volume is over 6 times better than gasoline! I bring up gasoline because that is what the factory selected to cool the motor. The most powerful AFR is between 12.5 and 13.5 to one. Our motors are factory tuned (down) to somewhere around 11 to one in an effort to quell detonation.

Additionally, tuners generally tune to the low/mid 11s as they know the CCP can easily wreak havoc above that AFR.

Enter AI.

Inject water, cool the engine. Make more HP?

Probably not.

Save your engine from thermal meltdown?

Yes.

We often see posts from FD owners that have installed a water AI system that express dismay that their recent dyno session did not result in additional hp. (Maybe even a slight loss of hp.)

Welcome to the real world. Water injection by itself does not add hp. It does add engine life by cooling the combustion process and steam cleaning the internals.

“Tuning Up”

Water can add significant hp by allowing you to raise the boost. Increased airflow thru the motor raises the CCP and hp and water’s cooling effect allows a higher boost to be run. Obviously the proper tune needs to be attendant… (timing & fuel).

How far can you go w water hp-wise? I don’t have first hand experience as I have never ran water but RiceRacing has made 600 rwhp with just water.

I am interested in someone running a new school HD-AI system and tuning up to see where we can go w water in 09.

“tuning up” adds risk…

If you raise the boost past what you can run without water and have a water delivery problem your motor could be toast. That’s the primary reason the majority of water-AI systems are not tuned up. Many just don’t want to assume that risk. This, of course, is a purely subjective decision.

One of the features of the newer AI systems relates to “safeguards.”

Generally they relate to cutting the turbo boost to spring pressure, cutting the ignition, retarding the ignition, or even shifting a map in your ECU based on AI rail pressure, a flow gauge, pump malfunction, clogged nozzle, a higher than preset AFR etc etc.

I do wonder as to the efficacy of cutting boost… apex seals break in milliseconds and it takes time to lower the boost…

We will get into “safeguards” in another post… but just know that tuning up carries risk and is not for everyone.

You don’t need to tune up if you just want piston reliability out of your rotary..

There are a lot of really nice water AI systems on the market. If you are not tuning up w water you can do very well w a non HD-AI setup.

As an example, CoolingMist offers a nice adj ramp kit for $320 which is a snap to install.
I mention the CM as an example of a number of nice options from the vendors listed above.

Buy a similar unit, install it and kiss your cooling worries goodby.




Methanol AI... the new POWER PARADIGM

just as water delivers previously unobtainable cooling/reliability to the turbo'd rotary alcohol/methanol brings POWER along with reliability.

we have been power limited pre-AI w the turbo'd rotary. too much CCP creates knock and rotary destruction. as a result we cruise around on pump gas at 375 rwhp. we visit the dyno, fuel up w $$ racegas, turn up the boost and end up w a piece of paper we can show to supra owners.

we stuff 3 rotor motors in our FDs in search of liveable 500+ ponies, maybe a modded V8.

often our weany turbo choice has been governed by these realities...

alternate engines are alot of work, especially when you can make 500 or 600 rwhp reliably w the 2 rotor!

there is a much simpler, less expensive option.

Methanol Magic.

methanol is a new PARADIGM as it changes everything.

for instance EXEDY and ACT should be giving AI systems away. the reason?

500+ rwhp fries most clutches. my advice? save up some money, bite the bullet and buy yourself an Exedy twin cerametallic. i have 4 years on mine and love it.
the reason a twin disc is highly desireable when the V8 guys happily run a cheaper single disc?

the rotary is so compact the flywheel ends up being of small diameter limiting the available frictional surface. you have 2 options, up the spring pressure or double the surface by stacking 2 discs. the double disc uses much less spring pressure and is easier on your leg and the throwout arm. spend the $1400 once and you will be smiling as you go through the gears for years.

skip the much more expensive carbon/steel option. the cerametallic is emanently driveable. further, carbon's coefficient of friction varies from .39 to .48 depending on temperature while Exedy's patented cerametallic is .48 unvaried. after 4 years my friction surfaces look close to new... pics to follow.

so you need a clutch that will handle at least 450 ft pounds of rw TORQUE w methanol.

turbo selection doesn't have to be HP limited. methanol, when properly tuned, adds midrange torque... you can also run 30 psi so maybe you start looking at different compressor maps. you can look at 80 lbs per minute air delivery too.

exceptional porting becomes more valuable. what once was quite adequate is now a drag on performance. there are streetports and then there are Streetports... BTW, i am not a fan of bridgeports unless you are really racing almost all of the time. i know there are some on the other side on this but notice i am saying for a dual purpose FD. BP's hugely pollute the incoming combustion charge where most of us do our street driving. you can get most of what you want w a larger maxxed out street port... some call it extended streetport..... anyway, meth puts a premium on great ports.

continuing briefly on ports... the primary port is an often neglected part of the equation and presents a major performance upgrade if properly massaged.

the exhaust port also, and especially w the rotary, needs to be done just right. the timing of the release of the CCP is all about the exhaust port. too soon and you lose torque, too late and you lose torque. if you spend some time on Competition Cams' site you will gain an appreciation for what valve timing can do and the rotary is no different. when i look at ports i do view them from a degrees after top dead center, after bottom dead center and duration (opening) perspective.

in addition, the exhaust port can be widened to the point that apex seals warp in the center from inadequate cooling, you need to know when to say no.

ignition requirements, interestingly, are not as high as w water. the FD has an amazing ignition system from the getgo. Mazda did it right w the FD. crank fired from the factory... wow. no stone age distributer. all you really need is an MSD 6A on the leading plugs, a set of good wires (NGK or MSD work well), and the right heat range plugs.

Methanol, being a fuel takes some of the load off your primary fuel system. i run the usual 850/1600s and have seen my injector duty cycle decrease from about 90% before methanol to 72% with methanol.

which brings me to tuning.

INSTRUMENTATION MAKES UP FOR GENIUS

unless you feel really lucky spend some effort on instrumentation.

since you are embarking into the uncharted territory you need something to guide you.... sort of like having a compass.

here's what you need and it all must be digital and loggable, forget looking at an analog/digital gauge w your right foot on the floor:

minimum:

AFR
PRETURBO EGT(see my htread "Dual Digital EGTs")
knock (factory knock sensor works great when logged)
fuel pressure (FJO offers a screw in pressure sensor)


i use the Apexi Power FC- Datalogit and log the above along w exhaust back pressure (EBP) and a few other items. you really don't need (EBP) since your turbo setup has already been properly sized... (mine is a custom setup and i needed the info.)

anyway, back to tuning...

if you are running the FJO HD-AI setup i suggest you refer to the settings i have previously posted earlier in this thread. max alcohol delivery around peak torque which should be around 6000. trailing off 10 to 15% to 8000+rpm. curve into alcohol delivery starting around 2 to 5 psi boost. non HD systems adjust your delivery curve for max delivery around peak torque.

i suggest sizing delivery around 1000 to 1500 CC/Minute. you will go way rich if you start w a previous non HD map so start taking pump out until you reach the mid 11 AFR neighborhood. you will see knock decreasing mirror image to hp/rpm.

meanwhile you have tuned for mid 11 AFRs like most of us on the board do. now take a look at your EGT. you will want to see 1475 F from a couple of psi to one bar and 1550 from one bar up to max boost. if you don't see those numbers (you probably will see less) carefully advance the timing a degree at a time.

you now have 500 reliable rear wheel rotary hp.

since we are talking Paradigm here the next upgrade will be a 4 wheel set of RacingBrakes.

if you haven't been in a real 500 rwhp FD you won't appreciate the need to stop RIGHT NOW. a 500 RWHP FD is a true SUPERCAR, back to new Paradigm... you will need a new suspension. pls see my thread in the suspension section... "Howard Coleman's FD chassis/suspension setup." trust me, you 'll need to read post one.

and trust me, building an FD right almost never ends. i started mine in 99 and still have a few odds and ends to do.

to be continued

hc

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

'just a quick post to suggest that you spend some time on the Aquamist site. 'lots of really good basic info there in addition to the forum...

2007 ZX-10

thanks Howard

can you raise the AFRs to say, 12s?

Dudemaaanownsanrx7

iTrader: (23)

Rice racing claims he has tuned as high as 13's with water. I won't be tuning anywhere close to that lean. I plan on tuning up a little for water but not to the point where if there is a problem my engine will immediately go boom. Seeing as some people already safely run 20 psi on pump gas, and some people are able to run mid 11's with no problem, I'll be running 20 psi and mid to 11's AFR with the WI. hopefully if there is any kind of problem I will have time to catch it and the motor will hold. With the system being mostly mechanical I feel there isn't much that can go wrong, and i'll be routinely checking the system as well.

With meth injection it appears leaner mixtures will probably be possible as well, considering Howard's mishap with the MAP sensor falling off and AFR's in the 13's with no knock and 30? extra HP