DocChewbacca

Wow, I thought the M2 thread was probably dead LOL was I stupid.

Here is some much needed real data for this thread.

I've had my twins in for a couple of months. Dyno-tuned my PowerFC at XS Engineering. Attached are my torque and hp curves.

Briefly: Wheel HP at 15psi ---> 357.7
Torque at 15psi ---> 279.2

I run this on the street, daily. They spool up incredibly quickly. I am not running an after market boost controller, just the PowerFC. That actually worked better than my Blitz Dual SBC.

Other gizmos of importance on the car:

Exedy flywheel and ACT clutch
1300cc secondary injectors
PowerFC computer
B&M Ignition booster
Cosmo fuel pump
M2 large intercooler
M2 intake
nTech midpipe w hi-flo cat
Mazdatrix downpipe
Racing beat Cat-back
Greddy pully kit

DocChewbacca

Wow, I thought the M2 thread was probably dead LOL was I stupid.

Here is some much needed real data for this thread.

I've had my twins in for a couple of months. Dyno-tuned my PowerFC at XS Engineering. Attached are my torque and hp curves.

Briefly: Wheel HP at 15psi ---> 357.7
Torque at 15psi ---> 279.2

I run this on the street, daily. They spool up incredibly quickly. I am not running an after market boost controller, just the PowerFC. That actually worked better than my Blitz Dual SBC.

Other gizmos of importance on the car:

Exedy flywheel and ACT clutch
1300cc secondary injectors
PowerFC computer
B&M Ignition booster
Cosmo fuel pump
M2 large intercooler
M2 intake
nTech midpipe w hi-flo cat
Mazdatrix downpipe
Racing beat Cat-back
Greddy pully kit

artguy

u must be greg.

one thing to consider is that he is running these toward the bottom of their efficiency range. I noticed a healthier difference in power from fifteen to sixteen lbs than I did from say 12-13lbs...at higher boost they really get cooking.


j

artguy

the m2 turbos were previously available in two different wheel sizes...the ones I have are .59 which spool extremely quick and noticibley larger than stock...the set greg has has even larger wheels than what I have....the larger of the two optional sizes.

when I am finished with my dyno stuff you should see a difference in curve between his set and mine.

btw...the above numbers would put you at or over 400hp running 18-19lbs....which they are capable of doing.

glassman..where are you?


j

DocChewbacca

Hey Jason heard about you too!

Jason is correct in the projected hp potential of the turbos, I just wanted them tuned at something I could manage on a daily basis will less concern about longevity ergo the 15psi tuning.

One thing of note is the incredibly LINEAR onset of power and fairly flat torque band. The power is very predictable and extremely usable.

artguy

cheers to that...


here is a comparison to a kkk single turbo and the gt35 single.

for example..take a looksy at the power on the bottom gt35 at 300rpms...compare that to the m2 set...that is why I went with the m2 set.

take a look at the power on ernie t's kkk setup between 5-6k...interesting that they are pulling the same numbers through there....not bad middle either it seems. overall there is better performance from the m2 set from 3500 - 6000 rpms on the m2 set over this setup.

glassman where are you?

single turbos smoke up top...holy **** they fly...but down low the m2 set of gregs does perty well. thats how I like it.

I would like to see what your charts would look like if you ever run higher boost docchew...keep us updated.


j

artguy

if you can...download the torque chart and compare that to the singles as well...the m2 set compares very well and outperforms both setups down low CONSIDERABLY.

I know because I drive them..that the m2 set is the best possible setup available for tearing around town in city driving. singles and such are amazing...pure power...but I dont do most my driving in the rpm range of 6-8k. I do it in the 3-6k with occasional bursts into the high rpms.

here is the rx6 vs the m2 twins...note..both sets are not operating at peak 400hp range but the numbers are close enough to look at in the below charts.

where is ****?


j

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

I'm right here!
While those numbers are nice, they just don't floor me.
Not taking anything away from you or your car Gregg.
Those numbers can be had with stock twins and all the other mods. You will also save yourself $3,000!!!
Rich makes more power with stock twins at the same psi, Rikki makes more @ 11 psi.
Lets not forget that KDR tunes a little less aggresive then XS does.
Where is the 400 or 450 rhwp everyone keeps talking about???
It may be great if you can push these thing up to 20, 30, 60 psi.
But why the hell would you want to do that???
With the $hit octane you have out there, I wouldn't want to run more then 16 or 17 psi on pump gas anyway.
Why not get something that makes 425-450 rwhp for around the same price???

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

Whe you guys talk about street racing it's usually from one light to the next, very short. In the illegal drag races it's about an 1/8th mi, not 1/4mi. In both of these scenereos the M2 kicks some booty ! You can launch at a lower RPM instantly, where I have bog launching low or wheel spin at higher RPM. With both cars running 14lbs in an 1/8mi there is no way for me to slingshot past him (allegedly) running parallel.

You can think of the M2's similar to an engine rebuild with better seals and lighter rotors. Some people call it a new engine and some people call it an upgraded rebuild.

You could actually race in a stock class with the M2's and kick everyones *** and no one would know how. ...ultimate sleeper.

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

M2 isn't about the most HP for the money. It's about retaining the happy face in the city and occasional freeway sprint that the sequential turbos gave you. The problem with the stock sequentials is that they don't last at higher boost. My rebuilds lasted 25k mi and the last 15k of that was at 14lbs.

The GT-35/40 does seem like an excellent bang for the buck but I would think it's inital cost is higher than $3500 for parts not in the kit that you would need. You also have to include the hefty tips to your friendly neighborhood smog guy.

BNR and M2 are too new to know what their longevety is yet, but we allready know about the stockers. The '99 stockers would cost the same price as M2 at $3k.

artguy

glassman...sorry they dont floor you...but they do exactly as advertised...in the previous posts you had mentioned that you didnt believe they would work as advertised. these sheets show that they do. so stop being such a poopy pants. hahaha

compare different sections of the charts.

u wanted to know why to go m2 instead of single...it was exactly as I stated before..

1 you can get thru emissions in cali if you need to
2 you can keep all your low end and have better response than stock.
3 you can run high boost without high heat like the stockers which tend to melt down over 13lbs
4 the m2 seet are fun and are capable of 400hp..same as the rx6 is....at two thirds the cash or less...the rx6 is expensive now and it is the least laggy of the singles available.

you said you would run 17 lbs...well 17lbs on greggs car would put somewhere around 385 or so reliably...stockers dont put that kind of numbers reliably(turbo wise)...the stockers melt down at that kind of boost.

you didnt believe it..there are the charts. I will do some runs on the dyno soon...I will run the higher boost they are capable of and I will show you what 400 hp looks like.

go single..spend 5k on an rx6 if you want to keep your lag time down...enjoy it....keep the stockers..fry your stuff with extreme heat...

the stockers cant hit 400...period.

I didnt just throw down 3k to get the power...I needed new turbos...I could have gone jspec (not much diff)...I could have gone rx6(my first choice but smog scared me off) or I could go m2 and have a nice balance between the two and have even better immediate response.


j

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

How are these any better then the stock turbos power wise???

You guys can bitch about smog and racing from light to light all you want.
Truth is, I don't have to worry about smog, and if you are really that worried about racing from light to light (racing is for the track BTW!) why not get a AWD DSM or S/3 or WRX???
Then you really can race light to light, why because they have a traction advatage, no matter how much more power your turbo's make down low.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Whats all this talk with how much more it would cost to go single???
If you really want to have power, you will have all the other mods to start.
I see that there is an upgraded IC, injectors, ecu, exhaust, etc...
If you are that worried about spending a few hundred dollars on a BOV and making some piping from your ic to the turbo you shouldn't be driving an RX-7!!!
Buy an XS kit, it comes with everything you need, BOV, and IC pipe as well. You will get more HP, a cooler engine bay, less headaches, a turbo that is much easier and cheaper to repair, you even get a warranty on some of the turbo kits!!!

artguy

they have better response...everyone who has them can attest to that...they make less heat (always a good thing)..and they can handle high boost abuse because of it.

they are more efficient as well.

captbills 40-70 times are the best on the forums I believe.

I was running 14lbs on stockers at one point...you know I probably had fairly similar numbers to when I was running 12lbs on my m2 set (except for the response of the m2s)...wanna know how long they lasted?

both sets combined lasted less than 12k miles...when I pulled the stockers apart they were melted and brittle from heat.

I ran the m2 set for six months at high boost...pulled them off to fix an exhaust leak...and the wheels looked as good as new. the exhaust wheels were clean too.

so how do you like them apples?

hehe

j


btw..the cars you mentioned are butt ugly. thats why.

rx7s are gorgeous.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

There are plenty of people that have had the stockers take 14-16 psi for years and many of miles with no problems.
How many miles did you have the stock pre-cat on?
How many miles did you have your stock cat and exhaust on?
What kind of oil do you use?
These can help lead to an early death of the stock turbos. Of course many other factors come into play.
Now, I'm not saying that you should go out and jack your boost to 15-16 psi and just leave it there, but for those 11 second going down the track or using it on the highway you should be fine if you car and turbos are in good shape for a pretty long time.
So maybe your making 5-15 more hp at the same rpm. For $3,000???
Thats not including the other mods needed to support this.
If you like lower power, try a V8. There are also plenty of ways to drive with in the powerband. Thats what gear ratios and flywheels changes are for.

tk5dan

The only way the stockers can hit 400 hp is with HELLA mods. With that said, can the M2's hit more than 450 if you were to do alot more mods like IC and more free flowing exhaust? Or is a little over 400 all u can get?

artguy

0 miles on those sets with stock precat...was running intake exhaust dp streetport and ecu at the time..on a nice clean stock cat.


there are not plenty of people who run 16psi on stockers who have them last..Id bet that 90 percent of the people running over 13-14 psi experience turbo failure prematurely on the stock set.

I ran synthetic on the first set and run decent oil always. (except for my last oil change which was what they had...I religously change oil every 1000 miles)

there are no v8 cars I want or rather "want that I can afford". sorry..I hate mustangs..and hate camaros too.

you can run 16lbs every single day on the m2 set and have 370 hp at the wheels with a lot less heat.

there are no guys on these forums that can do that on stock turbos...right? a run or two and that is it.

3000 dollars either gets you a new set of jspecs..most of what you need to run a single (other than the now pricey rx6) or you can go m2/bnr.

I went m2 to gain back the lost power down low caused by my streetport. I also wanted to run higher boost at reliable temperatures. I wanted 360 to the wheels on a daily basis and didnt want the lag of a single.

I also lost two motors due to heat problems...the m2 set is a lot more efficient as I have said and the lower temps mean less high heat overall. that is good for me.

If my stockers were not shot..THREE TIMES...I would not have gone m2. Id have kept the stock set...but I was also tired of being beat off the line and the m2 set gave me my low end umph back that the streetport stole from me.

all in all I feel like the m2 set in conjunction with a streetport makes for a very balanced car. that is what I was after.

a little over 400 is what is to be expected out of the set due to manifold restrictions. that is a good number in my eyes regardless.

j

btw..the XS kit is laggy...and single turbos take away some of the spirit of the car on a city driving level...granted they smoke and are extremely powerful..high end performance is not what I am after.

I want balance..pure and simple. a single in the city driven daily is not the kind of car I would be able to enjoy here in LA.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Lets wait until we see if the M2's can hit 400 rwhp (which I really doubt) before you start talking about 450 rwhp.
Even if they can, it would have to be around 19-21 psi, and why in heck and where would you run that much boost?
Please tell me you don't plan on driving around with 20 psi!
Hope you can trust the fuel, tuning, your motor, etc...

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

I've (allegedly) raced an AWD Talon and won. I don't see a WRX being any faster. I didn't buy my 7 to compete with with F&F wannabe's but sometimes it's fun blowing them away.

I think the only problem Glass Man is looking at is the cost. Is the price justified for the power. Well that all depends on the person and the smog laws where you live. Not to mention how much you'll pay for the fun factor which is why you bought the 7 in the first place.

The '99 JDM twins will cost you $3k as well and don't have the HP but the trade of is they are new. Taking away the fun factor of the m2 quick spool, we would need to compare the BNR an '99's at 16lbs to see if Glassman point holds true.

artguy

why do you doubt they can hit that glassman?

I have stated all along that they should hit 400 hp at 19psi? with larger wheels and such gregs car should see about 12-15 hp per lb of boost...he is running 358 at 15lbs...that would put him in the vacinity of 400 easily enough....

thats the kind of thing for quick bursts as you mentioned with the stockers...which by the way is riskier because of the high heat from that set...

I trust my tuning...FD Racer and I did it ourselves.

I built my motor for high boost...high rpm abuse...thats why I paid to do the 3mm one piece ianetti ceramics.

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Then all you need to do is find a dyno and use 15 minutes of your time and $50.00 to prove me wrong!

RTS3GEN

Well a run or two that is it? My twins are original units with 129,000 plus miles on them. Daily driven at 13-14 psi and 6 pages of Dyno runs at 16psi. Countless 12 second 1/4 mile passes (Low 12's mind you) at 15-16psi and 2 runs in the 11's at 15-16 psi. It's all about how the heat is handled and how the car is maintained. I have always run synthetic oil, by a real synthetic manufacturer. Either AmSoil or Mobil one. No other manufacturer has the technology to make a 100% synthetic oil. They are all blends. True the heat does the damage but proper maintenance is the KEY....Ask Cameron from Pettit. I built my car for Road racing with his advice and it performs every time. I may be a rare case but it can be done!
Art

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the input, this is exactly what I was talking about.
I notice you put down the very same numbers as the M2 twins with your stock twins!!!

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

I think the down and mid pipes are what is keeping his turbos cool and extending their lifespan for so long.

kwikrx7

One thing I noticed is that the 358 rwhp at 15 psi with the M2s was on a stock motor (I didn't see that in his mod list anyway) - this is a pretty healthy feat as most would agree that a streetport would add about 20-30 rwhp. Comparing the M2s to the single turbos, the M2s own the singles down low and even hold there own until about 6K rpms. I think they're pretty impressive. I agree that the stockers can't be run at 16-17 lbs of boost all the time - the M2 set allows you to do this and have incredible STREET power at hand at any rpms. I think that this is a happy medium for people who want to keep the same if not better response of the sequentials, but don't want the laggy, then all the sudden rush of power of a single.

The only thing that does bother me about the M2s is price and warranty. If artguy and greg feel they got what they wanted for $3K then that's great (defintely looks like a nice power increase)

The BNR twins with dynamic seals running sequential should be very comparable to the M2 twins. The only benefit it that they cost $1650 (might be more with dynamic seals..not sure) and have a 1 year warranty. Almost half the price of the M2s with a warranty and excellent customer service. One guy pulled 386 rwhp at 15 psi but have no dyno sheet..mine will be along soon.