dhahlen

iTrader: (5)

Alright, I have been thinking this over for awhile and the more and more I think about it, the better idea it is (at least to me). It is going to take quite a bit of funding, but I may have a few sources to help out with that... and I know I can get the equipment to use.

Here is the deal... everyone is always debating on who should build their engine. Reputations and word of mouth can go a long way.. but how do you know who builds the better bang for the buck when it comes to an FD motor? Now we're not talking about just a simple rebuild that is going to do stock power... I am talking about a large street port. I am looking into getting some of the big names and well-known rotary builders to hop in on this.

The idea:

Each company builds their own large street ported motor. (no custom sleeving on the ports), but using the stock housings, and making the ports as large as they'd like or as large as they'd normally offer.

These engines are then compared and charted on two different turbo setups. Something practical for street use, and something more for drag. These turbos would likely be something along the lines of a GT35r, and then a GT42r. But that's not certain just yet.

This comparison will consist of the following:

Cost of Build
Type of Porting
Flow Efficiency
Turbo Spool
Response
REV Limit
etc etc
(more to add)

Remember this is just the start of things. I am simply gathering information and interest.

Each Business would provide:

1 Motor Core built with their large port.

These cores would have all of the same items strapped to them, thrown on an engine dyno, and ran through a series of tests. All these tests will be charted.

I am of course trying to gather the funding, and sponsors necessary for this. This would not have a problem making a nice article in a tuner magazine.

A few problems:

Which EMS will be used?
Will builders be willing to build an engine for comparison?
Each engine will have to be tuned for both turbos, which is time consuming.
$$$$$$$$$

If we decided to take 10 engines, you figure that hooking everything up and strapping it to the dyno wouldn't take entirely too long. Add in the tuning, and break in, oil change, etc. And you've got quite the project. At best you'd probably be able to do 1 engine per day.

I think it may be a little far fetched, but with the right support and funding I am sure it can be done. It would be nice to see how the builders do side by side, and you could see what you're buying on an exact comparison with another builder.

When it gets to the time to actually get things rolling and looking for builders to step forward, I'll be sure and let everyone know. I am just simply gathering interest and I'd like to see what everyone thinks.

Opinions please!
-Darren-

justturbo2

iTrader: (4)

I Think This Is A Great Idea. I Hope All The Great Builders Would Participate. Good Luck With The Project. Willing To Donate,depending On The Builders.

Maximum

iTrader: (5)

I wouldn't consider the results of this to be relevant. Any one engine build doesn't really define the expertise of the builder. I think a survey of those who have purchased engines from builders would be more useful.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I sometimes wonder about the same thing. Why the large port though?

I listened to the Atkins presentation this year at SevenStock and was pretty impressed with what they had to say. They are the only ones I know of that actually test the compression and provide you with the numbers and also put your motor through a coolant leakdown test to make sure the coolant seals/system is in order.

Kinda cool.

dhahlen

iTrader: (5)

Yes and no. You have to consider the quality of work that one puts into a build. Someone had mentioned to me, "spec is spec" - but there is such thing as fine spec. And if you're pushing for efficiency and hp, it makes a difference.

Also, about people doing a survey on engines they have purchase... it's not a good comparison. People drive their fd one way, and others another. This test would all be done on an even playing field. Jo-shmoe may boost his car and hard drive the crap out of it, while Mr. Smuckatelli drives it like a gramps.

It doesn't have to be a large port either, this is just an idea. The port could be a medium port. But you figure lots of people that go through rebuilds go with some kind of porting. I figure a large port is good for anyone wanting to get a decent amount of extra power.

JHew84

iTrader: (9)

Maybe not the single peice of information to base your choice on, but certainly something to take into consideration. Competition brings out the best in people (most of the time), and this would be an interesting/fun way to compare some of the more famous builders in the community. Your idea of a survey is a good one as well, but that information could also be found with a little searching and some time to sit down and read. Either way I don't think this could hurt the community at all, every little bit of information is more than useful.

I think this is a great idea, and it would certainly weigh heavily on my decision. But like I said already, it wouldn't (and shouldn't) be the only thing to base your choice in builder from.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

I would be very suprised if you get any engine builder that will donate an engine for this. Basically you would be picking apart their work and in the end its going to hurt most of the companies involved. Not to mention that its a lot of money out of pocket for the builder hoping that they get good results.

I have taken apart engines from every "respectable builder" in this country. Its safe to say most of them have very similar port jobs and build quality. The only thing that has been an issue is some of these customers have not gotten what they paid for when it was intially built. IE, they paid for a large street port and it looks like the builder put 5 minutes into the port job, or didnt port it at all.

dhahlen

iTrader: (5)

I agree it would be hard to find a builder to donate an engine. Of course, they would get it back after the test. The other step was to purchase the motors separately. Once they have been run, I'd sell them. That is where the funding is coming in. I figure $4000-5000 per engine and I'd need around 5 of them to make any decent comparison. Even though there are far more builders than that out there. Like I said, I am working on the funding. But it would be nice if donations were made, of course.. it would be more of a lease and the builder is welcome to come along for testing.

Picking apart their work is another thing. I am not here to tear apart the engine (literally speaking). If any builder has confidence in their work and enough confidence to put forth that work and compare it to someone else's, then good on them.

You also have to figure.. how many builders actually flow test their engines? Probably very few. They'll use a template and port that way, not to say that it is bad.. but there are a lot of variables into porting. But then again who's to say someone won't spend tons of work on the demo engine, and then when it comes down to other one they are building.. they half *** it?

I'd just like to see the engines side by side.

swif

iTrader: (4)

I think this is a great idea for the fact that people would be able to see the differt thoughts that builds have and see the then in action. I also think that this would also help an unknowen build get his name out there if one was to get in this.

As far as people using this for info to pick a builder I think it would provide spacifices on which builder they could trust. By this I think that this would lead people to look for more info on the builder.

Keep us informed with every step.

DGblk93

I have to agree with Jason. If a builder is going along just fine without any comparison tests, he isn't likely to donate an engine. All he is doing is exposing himself to liability.

Let's say (hypothetically) that you do get 5 different builders to donate a new motor with their version of a street port. You strap the same turbo on each, same ecu with the same map and plant them in the same car. Each motor *should* perform the same as the next one within a few hp.
The builder has zero upside to this contest. There won't be significantly differing HP numbers but the main attraction will be if an engine blows (bad publicity).

Also - how will you keep the results scientific? Can you assure the builders that each dyno day the weather and atmospheric conditions will be the same? That can affect the HP results too.

I'm not bustin your ***** - just giving you my input like you asked

KINETIK_FD3S

for engine builders thats like assembling the gun to shoot them selves in the foot if they don't have the best engine at the end of the tests.

Maximum

iTrader: (5)

This is another issue I was alluding to when I said that an inspection of one engine isn't relevant.

I also agree with those that say that no builder would expose themselves by doing this.

And who's going to do the inspections and testing? The most qualified people would be builders themselves, and they could be biased.

I just think there are too many factors that could make this kind of test useless. I would be much more interested to see a long track record of happy customers, particularly customers that drive their cars similarly to the way I like to drive (street, <400hp).

Football22

A few options that I think you should look into.

For help with funding, you could always approach a big named magazine company to do a write up on this. This way they would help out with the funding, and depending on the company it might give you some more pull in terms of getting engine builders to participate. But as others have said, this might also scare some companys away due to the high publicity and the fact that it could ruin their reputation.

One way you could do the test would be to approach all companys that you want to test, and have them all build you the same engine with the same specs/requirements. Don't tell the shops that you are using them for a test, but buy the engine just as any other customer would. Than take these engines to a shop somewhere and have them tested and compare them this way. You would have to think that the quality of build that you would get from a company that knows they are in a competition would be alot higher than that of what they sell over their counter to every day customers. This way you will have a better chance of testing their actual products and would be able to determin which company gives you your best bang for your buck.

Or, if things are going really well and you have alot of sponsors and interest in this competition, you could almost do it as a build-off compitition. Give each engine builder certain specifications and have them all build/tune a engine for you. You would definatly have to set restricitions on how far they can go with their modifications to ensure that you are testing the engine build itself, and not the whole car build.

I think that this could take a lot of effort and will be very hard to actually get going, but if you could accomplish it I think you would get great results and have alot of interested people in your results.