Marshallbc

iTrader: (2)

I am new to the FD scene, I bought my first FD this past from a member on the site. The car was in decent shape but needed some updating and a tune. Supposedly the car just had a factory rebuild 20k mile prior. The car came with a Greddy T88 single kit, extreme fuel system, Greddy FMIC, PFC and all of the right parts. Knowing that I took the car to a local rotary specialist shop put $2500 into the car in parts and a mild street tune. The car tuned at right around 400whp at high boost and 340 at low boost. The following week the motor popped on the highway in low boost, not due to over reving or anything like that, I was running fine one second and then sputter sputter pop pop dead.. The car died and wouldn’t restart, I had to have it towed home. Now the car currently has zero compression in the rear rotor and I was told by Atkins most likely the rear housing and/or rotor are trash and would need to be replaced.

Moving forward I am still trying to get the shop to call me back or return emails. I have removed the engine and sold the turbo kit, fuel kit and soon the exhaust. Due to a very limited budget the only thing I can think of is to order a JDM replacement engine and put that in the car and go back to pretty much stock. Then when I have the money together send the other engine out to have rebuilt properly and then build back up the single. I would think that if I can get a decent JDM engine that I would be able to get a few thousand miles out of the car if not more.

I am really just looking for the experienced FD owners advice. The car is only driven on the weekends and what not, more of a drivable long term project.

I am already out 18k from the purchase price to the shop updates and tune. All this in less than six months. I have owned many highend cars, turbo non-turbo, this is not my first problematic car. I think just my all time favorite though.

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

Hi Marshallbc,

Here's some thoughts based on your post:

"new to the FD scene"
Spend some time reading through the stickies on this forum before you move forward. It will help you form some idea of a path forward and to digest all of the possible advice that you will likely receive. At the very least you'll start to know what it is that you do not know.

"factory rebuilt"
If you're interested in knowing about the quality and condition of these when members receive them, search around. There's lot's of info.

"right parts"
that does sound like good stuff!

"told by Atkins most likely"
Are you open to pulling the engine apart yourself? You have little to loose and will know what the issue is.

"I'm trying to get the shop ... very limited budget"
Given the budget part and the shop not calling you back, pulling the engine apart yourself might not be a bad start.

"only driven on the weekends"
Fantastic! It's not your daily driver. This puts patience on your side. Seems like an obvious thing to say but I mistakenly daily drove my first FD. It's no fun when you're modding it or working on it ... especial on a limited budget.

"18k ... six months"
Ouch ... yep, I'd go the slow-down-and-learn-a-bit-myself route. It will leave you feeling more in charge of and confident of the work that you have done to the car, in the future. I have a steering / suspension problem with my car and brought it to a local and well known shop. I really didn't want to think about it (suspension isn't fun for me) and just wanted to have it fixed. After several weeks and a few $ (only $250) I decided to quit. I just didn't feel that my symptoms were being explored and addressed. It was time to learn. I've now eliminated two of the three symptoms that I had and am working on the third. Slow but I still have $$$ in my pocket and now know how to press bushings into suspension. Next up, a steering rack swap.

"JDM engine"
Not a bad idea. If the rebuild isn't your thing, pulling and replacing the engine might be an easier first step. Why not just save the money and rebuild the engine that you have? I'm saying this thinking that you have a daily driver and garage to store the car in though. Prowl the 3rd gen parts section a bit for JDM engine ideas. PM me if you'd like an idea about who to talk to and my experience with them.

best!

James

P.S. if you state your goals for the car, I'm sure you'll end up with a pile of other posts and more advice.

Marshallbc

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the feedback, I have been going through all of the stickies i can find on topic. I think that I may have to just step back and give up on driving it for a while and just move forward with rebuilding the current motor. Just wanted to be able to drive the car, sucks because I really havent been able to enjoy the car.

I have been in contact with Banzai and they are great people and full of advice. While I decide on what exactly to do i am addressing all the other smaller issues with the car like suspension, body, paint.

Overall I am going for weekend car, fun to drive and take to meets and whatnot. Not looking to track the car or anything close to that. I like the idea of the single as well as the looks.

Thanks

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Which shop did you take your car to? Frankly I don't know of any rotary specialty shops in Stafford, Va. The closest one to you that I can think of is PFS, and I'd stay WELL away from them after my experiences in the past 3 years..

If you're looking to just go back to stock than you may want to consider getting a reman(ufactured) engine from Ray Crowe at Malloy Mazda in Woodbridge Va. The reman's are only $2,800 iirc and could be a fairly simple drop-in application (provided you get a retune from a different shop) to start fresh with.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Agree, except on the tuning part, I do recommend PFS for tuning

Also, those remans might or migh not use parts that are barely under specs. The guys at Speed 1 had to throw away BOTH rotors from the used reman engine that I brought it. Both rotors had apex seal scars on all three faces

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

See, his tuning led to my last motor failing just 1,500 miles after it was built. Granted, the shitty wear/condition of hard parts, atrocious "porting", and sloppy clearancing didn't help matters though...

But still, broken apex seal about 2 weeks after tuning sounds like a tune issue to me.

How long ago was that though? From talking with Ray it seems like the reman engines are coming out with pretty much all new stuff now due to the fact that it's freaking IMPOSSIBLE for them to find stuff that's within specs and not modified.

Marshallbc

iTrader: (2)

The work on the car and tune was done at PFS, the car was brought in to have it gone over and inspected for any issues and then tuned. After spending $2000.00 on parts and service to bring the car to good working order another $500 for the tune (which was asked to be a mild tune) I wasn’t chasing a 1000hp, PFS cars had the car for a few weeks. My exact words were, i just want to car to run well and last as long as possible.

The very next week the motor popped.

My brother in-law is a lawyer in MD and says that I have a very open and shut case for negligence and damages, but I don’t want to be that guy. I just want someone from PFS to call me back, it’s been months and they will not respond or call. I would think that they would take ownership of this issue, considering the car was running fine before I took it to the shop. I fear that the only thing left to do is to get me brother in-law involved legally.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I am inclined to believe that the failure was due to poor engine rebuild that the shop did, rather than the tuning; but thats an opinion.

Well, I've had the car back for a year, so one year ago, plus one year that it sat there, plus about three years from the previous owner (give or take), I'll say somewhere between 4-6 years ago.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

I am playin devils advocate here, and in no way I am defending PFS; however you have to look at the whole picture. PFS basically did a compression test on your engine before tuning it. I can almost guarantee that the $2000 bucks were spent on things like hoses, filter, etc (IE nothing internal to the engine).

A tune is a tune, and engines fail for numerous reasons. I would say you have a case, if you can prove that the engine detonated, while everything else was in tip top shape. However the reality is that your engine might've let go because it was "tired"

Again not defending PFS, since I have my own stories concerning them, however I also have stories from other tuners. Your best bet is to have ONE tuner build, and tune your setup, that way there is only one finger to point at, and even then...

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Unfortunately you're not likely to get Ray to pony up for that... He has a tendency (in my experience) to pass the blame to as many different places as he thinks he can fool the client into believing. He'll play on your good nature, so long as he gets that money he doesn't really care..

Honestly your best bet is to have your brother-in-law contact the shop with an offer/ultimatum with the option of a refund, or court.

I dropped between $15k-$20k in work at that shop (with almost $10k being in rebuilds). When I finally told him that I couldn't pay for any more work from him (after each engine he built failed within a couple months/few thousand miles) his response was that I needed to "learn to work on my own car" if I didn't want to pay for him to fix what he fucked up.

When I threatened litigation he was VERY forthcoming with getting me a refund, but only for one of the engines...

I would STRONGLY advise against taking your car back to him... I know I won't.

Reno_NVFD

iTrader: (2)

Don't forget that every Now and then reputible people sell engines here on the forum, a step up from random jdm motor in my opinion. A rebuild is the best way to go though it would suck to drop 1500 on a jdm motor for it to last only a couple months.

XLR8

iTrader: (52)

At this point I would have Speed One in PA or IR Performance in NJ rebuild the engine and drop it in. Or, buy a Mazda reman and do it yourself.

JDM engines are a big gamble, and you can easily end up with another bad engine and more money down the drain.

Being patient is hard, but to do it right you must take the high road.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Negative. A bad tune can, and will, destroy an engine in a heart beat! I've had it happen..

If his engine was simply getting tired than he'd most likely have other symptoms, like hot start problems. Also, if PFS did do a compression test before tuning than they low compression would show there.

Again, not the case with PFS:

The first rebuild that he did, which blew in approx 3k miles, blew due to a crappy side seal. Clearly an error in the build itself, during the process of measuring clearances and/or stacking it up. PFS refused to warranty that engine. Their reasoning was because I had taken the car to IRP for a break job (went with a Wilwood BBK up front, and the RaceBrake BBK in the rear) an once over before having Enzo tune for power. PFS stated that they were not responsible for the bad engine because another shop had touched the car.

The second engine that he build me (which took over 7 months for him to complete) blew within 1,500 miles of the first start. Ray built it, installed it, and tuned it. The ONLY work that happened outside of his shop was when I did an oil change at 500-600 miles. The engine blew while I was driving in to work one Sunday afternoon. I wasn't racing or driving aggressively whatsoever, in fact I was purposely driving sedately so I could see what kind of fuel economy I could get out of it... When I called Ray up he said to bring it in. When he saw, on the compression test, that it was an apex seal he blamed the gas I was using (even though I had been putting the same 93 octane fuel in my FD from the same shell station for over two years). When I assured him that it wasn't the gas he then reverted to saying that he wouldn't/couldn't warranty it since the engine didn't fail as a result of my side seals going out...

When I asked him at that point what my options were to get my engine, that he had just built, fixed since I couldn't/wouldn't pay him any more... That's when he told me to work on my own car.

After I cracked open my engine, I spoke with JAG, then informed him I was considering taking him to court... It's kinda sad, that afternoon was the BEST customer service I ever got from PFS.

I would NOT trust that man to do so much as an oil change after I cracked my engine open and saw what he considered to be "acceptable wear" and his definition of "within tolerances".


(edit): To add... depending on what you actually purchased at PFS, your best bet may just be to cut your losses and move forward.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

These three options would also be my recommendation.

Again, I agree with this.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Not what I meant. Yes a bad tune is a bad tune, and will normally destroy engines in a heartbeat, normally at the dyno.

Not necesarily. I had two different (used) engines die in the dyno, none had the symptons that you are describing, and none of them died in PFS dyno.

I hear you, and dont argue it, that was shitty all around, however what you are describing its an engine build failure, not a tuning failure.


Since we are sharing experiences let me add my experience with two different shops that have been mentioned in this thread...

I did full t2 swap on my fc, and did a full engine rebuild on my own. All the car needed was the intercooler piping, and the e6k tuned. I ran the car basically as a NA for 3K miles or so, while braking the engine in. I took the car to shop #1, where the car sat for 6 months, without getting touched, not even looked at.

Pull the car from shop #1, and send it to shop #2. All I asked was for them to do the intercooler piping, and tune the e6k. The car sat for a month or so, and then I got the dreaded call. The engine lost compression while on the dyno. Bummer, but I was neutral enough not to blame the shop since they didnt build the engine. Here comes the used REW remain engine. The engine had 2-3 years on it, but less than 10K miles on it. Dropped the engine in shop #2, and had them do a custom mount for it. More than a couple of months passed by, and then I got the call, their words "the engine puked at the dyno".

At this point, I am super bummed out, but then again, cant blame shope #2 since they didnt build the engine. I had shop #2 rebuild the REW engine, and tune it. Couple of months passes by, and I finally got a call stating that the car was ready, at this point the car spent almost 16 months at shop #2.

A rebuilded stock ports REW on a divided T04S, SS dual 38mm manifold, 4 inch DP/MD to y pipe, yadda yadda yadda made 280 rwhp at 11 psi.

Those HP numbers seem awefully low, dont you think? Not to mention the 1 quart blowby every 750-1000 miles of daily commuting the vehicle in NOVA/DC (not much room to blast the engine either). To be fair, the shop said that I could bring the car in for them to check on it. I was also told that these engines are "dirty", in reference to the blowby.

I am not mad at either shop, it is what it is. My point is that to blame a used engine failure on a shop/tune, its irrational. I guess the OP can post the map on his engine, and the experts can point out if it was an aggresive tune or not.

Marshallbc

iTrader: (2)

Well I can say that Ray contacted me and I am currently having the car shipped to his shop. He is going to pull the motor and take it apart to identify the cause for failure at no cost. Then he is willing to work with me greatly he says to rebuild, install and tune the car.

Does anyone know how I can copy the tune he did off the Apexi Power FC prior to sending it to him?

James Paventi

iTrader: (34)

You need a Datalogit to copy the tune ... maybe someone local will connect theirs and do it for you?


https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...logit-1020770/

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Expect your rebuild to take 5+ months (3-4 months PAST your deadline... ) that is the standard with PFS, and once your car is in pieces at his shop you can't just collect it and leave...

If you want to, you are more than welcome to bring your pfc box by mine next weekend. I'll have the builder/tuner for Speed1 down at mine in Alexandria, Va. He'll have his datalogit and laptop with him to put a road tune on my car.

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

Just going to throw this out there , and FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME IF I'm WRONG ,

But isnt the limit of the ( FACTORY REBUILT / OEM Seals ) 350 whp ? wouldnt 340 / and + be beyond the limit of the factory seals already anyways .

XLR8

iTrader: (52)

I have seen stock Mazda Remans make 500whp with no issues. A lot of supporting mods obviously, but the cores can handle it for the most part. With a solid engine the key is tuning and setup.

My Pineapple engine has OEM seals currently with 454whp @ 23psi. Should hit 500 on the next go around.

OEM seals have their advantages and disadvantages. I am no builder by far, but I have been told they are often the most consistent in the machining process. They are also quite rigid. This can be good for power, but when overpushed they can cause more damage to other internal parts.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

Frankly I think the OP is being trolled by the shop. They have done it to many others in the past. I wouldn't be the LEAST bit surprised if the ONLY reason the OP was contacted by the shop is because Ray was pointed towards this thread, and he's trying to keep the bad press (and lawsuits) at bay....

Either way, I'll help out the OP any way I can, either by myself or through my friends. But at the end of the day I'll fall back on the old saying of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink". Granted... that saying isn't entirely true... There is coercion (hold the Horses head under until it drinks), or manipulation (salt the living **** out of its food).. but neither of those seem pertinent, lol.

OP, best of luck with that rebuild...

ArmitageGVR4

iTrader: (13)

Sorry to hear about your motor. Sometimes you can do everything right and still end up with a bum result. My car is on its third motor with just 96k miles and it's never run anything but stock boost on stock turbos its whole life. The original one can be chalked up to the PO. The second was just a bad reman (installed by PFS, lasted less than 20k miles). On the other hand there are guys in the area who have been making over 400whp on their original 100k mile engines for years and years with no problems.

You may have good luck finding a used or rebuilt motor on the forums and definitely drop Fritz Flynn a line. Being in VA you have two of the best FD resources in the world close at hand.

Let me know if you need access to a Datalogit to pull your map. I'm not down in your neck of the woods too often but we can figure something out.

GreatShamanGT

iTrader: (9)

The factory motor should be able to handle 500+whp fine but once you get to around 500, you will probably need dowels. That's from reading, and I can't remember where it was posted, so take that information with a grain of salt.

Now, I have some good things and some bad things to say about PFS. I got my car tuned at his shop, and the tune was amazing. I never had any problems and the car ran really well. Granted it ran a little rich, but it ran well.

My only complaint, I dropped off the car on Monday, and he said he'd have it ready on Friday. That was a complete lie. I got up there with my truck to tow it home, and he actually hadn't even worked on it at all. I literally had to wait 8 hours for him to finish up some metal work and then watch him tune my car. It was kind of ridiculous. I legit sat in his office watching him and his crew work on my car. Needless to say, I got home really late. Before you get into any of the legal stuff though, before Ray tunes your car, he makes you sign a waiver. It states that if he did not build your engine and he tunes your car, then he will not be held responsible for any damage done by you after it leaves his shop.

I remember that I had to sign that a few years back, I'm not sure if he still makes you do it or not. I have to say though, I have heard some bad stuff about him, but I overall had a positive experience with the work itself.

Hope that gives you a little insight!


Edit:
Would also like to say, if his last tune blew up on you, buying a JDM motor and trying to drive on that, might cause you to have the same problem again, and you might have another giant paper weight. I think you should buy the JDM motor and rebuild it asap.

JEI.FD3S

iTrader: (4)

I live in Northern VA and have considered selling my stock motor with 65,000 kilometers on it. I am gonna go 20B so if you are interested you can email me PhillipRossB@gmail.com. You can see the engine run and I will take you for a quick drive to verify it runs good

SWAT81

iTrader: (14)

+1