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The Mazda nuts always suck. They either pull the stud out and are so seized to the stud that you can't re=use the stud or they damage the stud coming off so it's bad again. I've tried most methods to remove them and never had good luck.
The copper lock nuts I discovered back in my FC days, used them for 20 years on many different cars. They work awesome, never had problems with them loosening up and they come off nice and easy.
Dale
Another noob question: Is there a "professional" way of installing studs? I know how to use two nuts against each other, but it feels like a hack--like there should be a tool for that or something.
There are a bunch of companies that make them, this is just one example.
Basically the inside of that socket has 3 solid "barrels" in it. You slide it over the stud, and when you turn it with a socket wrench the barrels tighten up on the stud to remove it or re-install it. Works awesome.
It's also great (getting on topic) to remove the studs that stick out of the front iron for the water pump housing so you can properly clean and gasket scrape that surface. They come right out and install right back in nicely. I put a little blue Locite on the studs when re-installing to keep them in place.
Generally studs don't need to be crazy tightened in when installing, just snugged in there.
4 years ago i stripped a Miata to the bones. I was gonna put it together within a month so "i didnt need to be that rigid on the Bag&Tag."
Todays self want to give my past self a proper beating. Spent about as much time wrenching as i have spent searching for the right bolt in "the bucket".
ALWAYS BAG AND TAG EVERYTHING YOU REMOVE FROM THE CAR
4 years ago i stripped a Miata to the bones. I was gonna put it together within a month so "i didnt need to be that rigid on the Bag&Tag."
Todays self want to give my past self a proper beating. Spent about as much time wrenching as i have spent searching for the right bolt in "the bucket".
ALWAYS BAG AND TAG EVERYTHING YOU REMOVE FROM THE CAR
i like going through the bucket, its like adult legos...
when you're trying to organize stuff you need to use whatever system that works FOR YOU. i'm lazy, and kind of visual, so i like to be able to SEE what i've got. i kind of want a tray, but only for the thing i'm working on.
so like i have the engine all laid out nicely, but the stuff to put the interior back together later is in a box, when the engine is in the car, then i can start the interior, and then those parts get laid out.
it also helps to work on the same cars over and over again
I think I put this earlier in the thread, but keeping major components in one part, threading bolts back into the hole they came from - those 2 things make a huge difference.
I've seen people try and take everything apart down to tiny pieces. There's really no need. The upper intake manifold has the ISC, TPS, AWS, etc. on it? Leave them on there, no need to take all that crap off and lose it. Rat's nest, leave it all together with the wiring attached.
Hell I leave the oil filter on the rear iron until I'm ready to put the engine back in then I swap in a new one.
I'm currently rebuilding the engine in a 2009 RX-8, this is considered a Series 2 with the better 6 injector OMP. From everything I can tell it has a junkyard engine in it, had paint pen writing on many parts of the engine. Engine tested as having a blown apex seal in the front rotor and nearly no compression on the rear.
The cat was a cheap Catco weld-in cat ($120 on Amazon) that had totally failed, it was broken and clogged up inside.
RX-8's have REALLY crappy coil packs, the forum wisdom is to replace every 30,000 miles. They slowly go bad, the motor runs richer, the cat gets hotter and clogs up, and the engine blows. I think that is what happened to the first engine.
Taking the engine apart, I was surprised to find no broken apex seals. The motor basically carboned itself to death - the rotors were THICK with sticky black carbon, the seals were stuck all the way flush into the rotors.
I think the car being an automatic and probably driven very easy plus weak coil packs contributed to this.
Also FYI clearancing RX-8 side seals SUCKS SO HARD. They are thicker and keystone shaped than the old side seals. Takes for damn ever to get them down to size. Like 30 minutes a side seal. I have 3 to go .
RX-8's have pre-cut side seals which sounds on paper like it's amazing. There's a letter on the rotor, you buy the side seal that matches that letter and pop it in. Problem is it makes for a VERY sloppy fit. Average is 6-7 thousandths of an inch, I'm aiming for 3 thousandths. Doing a good fit on side seals makes a huge difference in compression - this is true on an RX-7 or RX-8.
Speaking of side seals, if its your first time buy 2-3 extra side seals. It's very possible to go too far in clearancing and you suddenly have too much clearance. Or you grab it too hard and bend the side seal.
This one time i came in on Wednesday and stacked the engine. On Thursday Paul Ko came in and put it in the car. Friday we load it up on the trailer and head out to the race track.
Saturday, my group came up first so i hop in the thing (FC3S ITS/PS1 car) and i take it easy for the first lap, cause its a fresh engine. right as i cross the start finish line, i hear a metal thing bounce around, and the the cockpit fills with smoke.
so i kill the engine and coast around waiting for one of the flaggers to motion me over, they don't so i go like half a lap.
The tow truck driver said, "nice line i did the same thing last week"
so we put the car up and the drain plug is missing.
we turn to each other, point and say "that was your job!"
engine turned out to be fine...
NEVER put something on finger-tight. "Oh, I'm just putting this on real quick to get it out of the way/test fitment/etc.". You'd be surprised how quickly a test fit turns into a final install.
Big one is the block drain plug - always tighten that one up after using it. Super easy to forget that it's just in finger-tight and you're dumping coolant all over the driveway.
BTW I haven't heard the name Paul Ko in ages, I remember him from the big list/TeamFC3S days!
Just wanted to add something here that can be missed if your new to engine building like me.
Dale Please correct me if I'm wrong as I read you have knowledge of this, but there are little spacers that go in between the oil injectors and the jets. My used engine had the system removed and I am piecing it back together. I recently transported a new engine and I took out the oil injectors to prevent the straps from putting a side load on them. When I looked inside I saw what looked like orings, but they are more like spacers with a funnel machined into it an the orientation is specific.
So make sure you have these in your rotor housing if you are still using your OMP system.
Yep there are a few threads on those, I think some rotor housings use different ones or something. I'm poor so I've only used old housings
Dale
rotor housing changed in late 98, for the 99's. if you look in there the old ones have like a flat head screw driver slot, and the new ones don't.
after the Rx8 starts production in 2003, they get a QR code stamped under the spark plugs.
and then as time goes on the fellow with the pink and blue pen gets more ambitious, a housing from 1992 usually has small marks, and a new one its like graffiti
As I have tore apart my brand new short motor from Mazda, (wait what?) I thought I'd share some details that was new to me at least.
1. New locking plate for the front pulley bolt, which negates the need for thread locker. Only some RTV used on the flat spot against the pulley boss.
2. New front cover gasket, no teflon ring, no O-ring.. I found this a bit peculiar. However, I'll see how the new gasket looks in the gasket kit I ordered.
3. I strongly recommend opening these engines up, mine had quite some corrosion buildup in the coolant passages. I'll also need to change 7 side seals for being over Mazda's recommended spec. of 0,05 - 0,15 mm (for US citizens, about three fiddy's of an inch or something).
That front cover gasket is the Cosmo 13b gasket. Atkins Rotary sells it, I think it's about $40. It's the best way to go, just drop it on and bolt in the front cover, no RTV, no foolishness.
I've seen that locking thing for the front pulley bolt over the years on other engines, it's been around. I don't know if it really helps, it's not like I've EVER seen a front pulley bolt that didn't need a propane torch and a 5-foot cheater pipe to remove!
RTV under the shoulder of the front pulley bolt is normal, that's in the FSM.
The rusty water is standard, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Fill with proper coolant and it will be fine.
Mazda's spec on side seals is pretty sloppy, you can always do better yourself. I like .002-.003 thousands of an inch. The tighter that is the better the engine will seal and less blow by. For many people just dropping in that motor is fine, yes you can always make it better, but it's a solid motor out of the box.
Mazda switched to the metal front cover gasket in 1996, the iron changes from N3A1 to N3F1.
the Lock Plate is in the catalog in like 1991, but doesn't really appear in real life until 1994-1995
the next update are the metering nozzles in the rotor housings in 1999.
and then 2 piece seals in 2003.
Since I just bought a new engine - is it worth it to change the thermal pellet to the cnc machined one or keep the original.
Also is it worth it to install an oil pan brace on the engine since it is out of the car and still need to put motor mounts on it.
I did use the search button but again it was a he said she said battle for the thermal pellet.
Thought it was relevant to this thread.
Since I just bought a new engine - is it worth it to change the thermal pellet to the cnc machined one or keep the original.
Also is it worth it to install an oil pan brace on the engine since it is out of the car and still need to put motor mounts on it.
I did use the search button but again it was a he said she said battle for the thermal pellet.
Thought it was relevant to this thread.
I wouldn't mess with the thermal pellet. Much more chances for something to go wrong than anything being helped out. If it was a used thermo pellet sure, but it's all brand new.
I don't know if I'd mess with an oil pan brace. I'm hoping the newer engines have a better oil pan seal, I'm sure RTV and the method to apply it is way better than 1991 when they started making FD engines. It's sealed from the factory, just leave it be.
It wouldn’t surprise me if MAZDA is still using the same sealant they used in 1992. And the pan’s design hasn’t changed.
It might be different if a pan leak was easy to deal with while the engine was in the car, but that’s a crap job with a low success rate.
While the engine is out and on a stand, personally I’d carefully remove the pan, clean it and reseal using something like HONDABOND and absolutely install a pan brace.
I don't know if I'd mess with an oil pan brace. I'm hoping the newer engines have a better oil pan seal, I'm sure RTV and the method to apply it is way better than 1991 when they started making FD engines. It's sealed from the factory, just leave it be.
Dale
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
It wouldn’t surprise me if MAZDA is still using the same sealant they used in 1992. And the pan’s design hasn’t changed. It might be different if a pan leak was easy to deal with while the engine was in the car, but while the engine is out and on a stand, personally I’d carefully remove the pan, clean it and reseal using something like HONDABOND and install a pan brace.
I decided to install a Banzai racing pan brace kit on my new 13B-REW; it had maybe ~200 miles of run time on it when I pulled the motor. Was going to pull the motor anyway so I could verify that the PO properly port matched the intake ports to the 13B-RE LIM/UIM it came with (he didn't ) so I had to get the engine on a stand to do that port matching operation myself. Don't know for sure if the sealant Mazda uses today is any better than the stuff they used in the '90s, but since I had the motor out anyway, I figured I'd be better off adding the brace and resealing with HONDABOND (which seals pans very well and is a known entity) with the motor on a stand as Sgtblue described.
Mazda has changed the sealant, the old stuff 8527-77-739 is a Takata SH780M, the current stuff is R2Y1-10-431 which is Three Bond TB1217D, change happened sometime after 2010
the Mazda USA part number for the current stuff is 0000-77-1217-ES, i mention that because list price is $12 which isn't bad at all (the 8537-77-739 was like $45!)
the sealant companies come out with new better stuff, but it is rare that they stop making the old stuff, so you need to be aware of that, especially if you're looking at Permatex's lineup.
About the sealant.
On a new OEM engine that was sitting for almost a year, the RTV was still wet on the ends and threads of the big 6 engine mount bolts they install with the washers onto the back of the oil pan.
I read that guys set them out in the sun to heat cycle and try to dry them while they are still out of the car, so I started doing this. Since I have the brace off my old motor I think I will swap it over.
Also I made my vm kit to the height of the engine with the oil pan brace since the motor sits higher by that distance, which is probably why I was able to swap out the oil level sender with the engine already in the car.
So when building your engine - take note of everything that adds to how high your engine will sit in an engine bay which may affect your previous set-up with strut bars and intercooler piping.
Example - I made a vm kit for a customer but my car had stock motor mounts, his had solid motor mounts. This was when I had my signature solid outlet pipe from the IC to the greddy elbow and it ended up being too short because not only did the engine sit higher but it also pitched back towards the firewall making the angle off as well.
About the thermo pellet..
I read about the cautionary notes.
example from NoPistons
"The risk of dropping a bearing is there, but I dont see it as a big risk, provided you are using the right tools. Provided you use an impact gun that has enough torque, you probably wont drop a bearing out. If you are trying to use a breaker bar, all the jarring of the engine would make it more likely to falling out. The front pulley, and the stack of gears and spacers on the eccentric shaft are what sets the end play of the ecc shaft. When you take the pulley bolt loose, you can shift the eccentric shaft farther back than you normally could. On some engines, that is enough to allow a thrust bearing to fall. The thrust bearings normally sit around the spacer that sets the end play, but they can fall down onto the shaft. When you try to torque the bolt then, You have an extra part in there taking up space it shouldnt. Pushing the clutch in will prevent the eccentric shaft from moving back at all(doesnt apply to FD's because they have a pull clutch). Then there isnt enough room for one of the thrust bearings to fall off its perch on the spacer.
An easy way to double check is to turn the pulley by hand after you torque it. You should be able to turn it if the trans is in nuertal. If not, its probably a good idea to check before starting the car."
The customers car I'm working on is 100% track car so I think it will want it - still waiting to hear from him.
For my new engine - I dont mind waiting for it to warm up and verify pressures and temps.
I agree there is a risk.
Maybe I should rephrase the question
Is the reliability and gain of additional oil flow at cold start up worth the swap. I would prefer to do the swap while the motor is out of the car.
So from a reliability stand point - is the question.
Thanks again Dale for this thread.
Really I don't think I've ever heard of an engine failure or major problem due to the pellet. It's just such a cheap and easy thing to swap in when building a motor that everyone does it.
If you have the engine on a stand, point the nose of the engine straight up when you swap it out. Also worth using a pry bar to see how much end play the engine has (really by feel) before you swap and verify it's still there and the same afterwards.
On the oil pan, the big causes of leaks IMHO is people prying off the oil pan and bending it out of shape then re-installing. Most leak-free pan is a new pan. If you are just putting a brace on probably not a big deal.
I don’t know….a bent pan lip is certainly ONE of reasons (along with not cleaning the surface well, oil contamination from doing it with the engine in the car, wrong sealant, wrong procedures used with the sealant, failure to torque properly, etc) that re-sealing doesn’t take. But there were a lot of pans that leaked from the factory…many when mileage was still pretty low. Mine and at least two others I recall fell into that category. I bought my car stock with ~ 40k and the pan was already leaking.
I also always wondered how many re-seal failures were due to using some of the early pan brace designs that didn’t have the reliefs machined to match the pan. Garfinkle was ahead of his time in that regard.
Personally I totally agree with you in replacing the wax thermopellet if you can do it with the engine on a stand and the hub pointing up. I wouldn’t even consider doing it in the car.
03-21-22, 09:08 AM
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) so I had to get the engine on a stand to do that port matching operation myself. Don't know for sure if the sealant Mazda uses today is any better than the stuff they used in the '90s, but since I had the motor out anyway, I figured I'd be better off adding the brace and resealing with HONDABOND (which seals pans very well and is a known entity) with the motor on a stand as Sgtblue described.