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I think the cause of the original oil pan leaks is Mazda using an RTV that wasn't gasoline resistant. Rotaries dilute the oil with gas moreso than piston engine cars.
But, if you go to re-seal, it's worth doing a new oil pan. You don't know if someone wrenched the pan off in the past and it's bent. Even a slightly bent pan will have problems sealing.
FYI, I have a putty knife I use for oil pan removal. I sharpened the front of the blade and one side of the blade on a bench grinder. Hammer it into the seal then hammer it all around the pan to break the seal, this does minimal damage to the pan. This would probably be REALLY hard to do with the engine in the car, I refuse to do an oil pan in the car, it's just a hot mess to try and do.
One related thought if it hasn’t been mentioned already…if you get a different pan and are swapping out the oil level sensor I’d figure a new O ring gasket, especially on a rebuild. All the ones I’ve seen that have been in very long are smushed pretty flat and would make me nervous reusing.
Yes, I would do what Sgtblue suggested 100%.
You get caried away with the file and then you might end up with uneven or out of spec gaps.
Thats just me.
Rotor has a little bit of damage front a chipped seal which made the seal pocket a little tight on the corner. Just trying to get it open it up a little to stop the seal from binding and re-use the rotor.
one related thought if it hasn’t been mentioned already…if you get a different pan and are swapping out the oil level sensor i’d figure a new o ring gasket, especially on a rebuild. All the ones i’ve seen that have been in very long are smushed pretty flat and would make me nervous reusing.
I'll give my thoughts on this. I've had to replace front cover gaskets before on engines that didn't otherwise need a rebuild. I was able to do it without dropping the bearing. So it's very very possible to just replace the pellet. My advice is to just be very gentle, don't jar anything, don't bump the eccentric shaft or otherwise disturb the stack. I personally would do it. I also like to live in the dangerzone and do all sorts of non-risk averse things dealing with the consequences as I go.
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme
About the sealant.
About the thermo pellet..
I read about the cautionary notes.
example from NoPistons
"The risk of dropping a bearing is there, but I dont see it as a big risk, provided you are using the right tools. Provided you use an impact gun that has enough torque, you probably wont drop a bearing out. If you are trying to use a breaker bar, all the jarring of the engine would make it more likely to falling out. The front pulley, and the stack of gears and spacers on the eccentric shaft are what sets the end play of the ecc shaft. When you take the pulley bolt loose, you can shift the eccentric shaft farther back than you normally could. On some engines, that is enough to allow a thrust bearing to fall. The thrust bearings normally sit around the spacer that sets the end play, but they can fall down onto the shaft. When you try to torque the bolt then, You have an extra part in there taking up space it shouldnt. Pushing the clutch in will prevent the eccentric shaft from moving back at all(doesnt apply to FD's because they have a pull clutch). Then there isnt enough room for one of the thrust bearings to fall off its perch on the spacer.
An easy way to double check is to turn the pulley by hand after you torque it. You should be able to turn it if the trans is in nuertal. If not, its probably a good idea to check before starting the car."
The customers car I'm working on is 100% track car so I think it will want it - still waiting to hear from him.
For my new engine - I dont mind waiting for it to warm up and verify pressures and temps.
I agree there is a risk.
Maybe I should rephrase the question
Is the reliability and gain of additional oil flow at cold start up worth the swap. I would prefer to do the swap while the motor is out of the car.
So from a reliability stand point - is the question.
Thanks again Dale for this thread.
Mike, in general on that rotor for most people I would say replace the rotor.
But, with some elbow grease that rotor will be fine. Again, it's a risk issue - a new or good used rotor is the sure fire way, trying to get a rotor back in shape could result in no problem or could result in a motor you have to take apart again.
Big thing is that the seals can easily ride in their respective spots without binding up. Also on the face of the rotor you want to smooth it out so there's not a hot spot or anything and it's smooth so it won't hit the rotor housing or something weird.
Go slow and check constantly, compare the spot you are working on to a known good spot on the rotor for clearance, how it "feels", how it fits, etc. Dremel and various small files are probably what will get you where you need.
I've done similar things back in my FC days when we were all broke and a used rotor was a bridge too far. I think in your case you're wanting to just see if it can be done .
FYI I *MAY* have a good FD rotor, I would have to look in the disaster of parts that is my attic .
No, it’s not, but it is exactly what I’d expect someone with prior 13B experience to say/believe.
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Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Are you saying that tight clearances on side seals don't contribute to good compression? Is looser better for compression?
I have a question. I'm going to be tearing down one of these new short blocks to do some internal upgrades (rxparts apex seals, Chips 10mm through studs, grade 8 stationary gear bolts, some oil mods, redo side seal clearances) in preparation for a single efr turbo setup. The engine will be torn apart still new never installed or started (except when tested by Mazda) and then be put right back together again with the new mods/parts and a pan brace. Being that everything is all new, what seals or gaskets should still be replaced instead of reused? I feel like new coolant seals should be used but what else? Oil control seals?
I have a question. I'm going to be tearing down one of these new short blocks to do some internal upgrades (rxparts apex seals, Chips 10mm through studs, grade 8 stationary gear bolts, some oil mods, redo side seal clearances) in preparation for a single efr turbo setup. The engine will be torn apart still new never installed or started (except when tested by Mazda) and then be put right back together again with the new mods/parts and a pan brace. Being that everything is all new, what seals or gaskets should still be replaced instead of reused? I feel like new coolant seals should be used but what else? Oil control seals?
I have one of these in bits now, I just bought the Mazda gasket kit 8DFE-10-271D and change everything included in the kit, water seals, dowel O-rings, front cover gasket and oil pickup gasket.
I might be a stickler, but I also included the oil control O-rings for peace of mind.
I have a question. I'm going to be tearing down one of these new short blocks to do some internal upgrades (rxparts apex seals, Chips 10mm through studs, grade 8 stationary gear bolts, some oil mods, redo side seal clearances) in preparation for a single efr turbo setup. The engine will be torn apart still new never installed or started (except when tested by Mazda) and then be put right back together again with the new mods/parts and a pan brace. Being that everything is all new, what seals or gaskets should still be replaced instead of reused? I feel like new coolant seals should be used but what else? Oil control seals?
its kind of a judgement call, if you have the luxury of time, you should do the water seals. the dowel and rear stat gear o rings would be nice (actually you could change the bolts without removing the gear...) as well.
i've done a couple where the car needed to be at the track the next day, and so i've reused the water seals without trouble, but its not a good idea
and in 2022 you should check all the prices, i think the 4 water seals are the same money as the O ring set, so you should get the O ring set
Question what does everyone do for water seals? the last engine i did, i had half a 20B o ring set, so i just ordered the stuff to complete it, and it seemed really expensive
are you all buying the O ring set, N3A1-10-S60A, the full gasket set or buying the seals separate?
in the past i've looked at what Mazda had in stock, and it was pretty clear, but now its not (probably because people are buying engines)
I have a question. I'm going to be tearing down one of these new short blocks to do some internal upgrades (rxparts apex seals, Chips 10mm through studs, grade 8 stationary gear bolts, some oil mods, redo side seal clearances) in preparation for a single efr turbo setup. The engine will be torn apart still new never installed or started (except when tested by Mazda) and then be put right back together again with the new mods/parts and a pan brace. Being that everything is all new, what seals or gaskets should still be replaced instead of reused? I feel like new coolant seals should be used but what else? Oil control seals?
Front and rear main seals are probably the only soft seals I'd re-use. Just leave them in place and don't touch them. Also, maybe the big O-ring around the rear stationary gear.
Water seals, dowel pin O-rings, for sure replace. They are cheap and there's too much risk re-using them.
Oil control seals will be fine, thinking about it. I pack them with either Vaseline or Crisco when installing to make sure they pop in nicely and don't snag or tear.
I'm in Thailand. Tried ordering from Japan, they said no center plates in stock until October. Ended up ordering from Billet Rotary in Aus, they had OEM cast plates in stock.
I'm still wondering how deep the surface hardening goes? I had the old plates lapped 0.1 before I found new ones. Looks like they had been lapped previously as well.
I know Chips Motorsports does lapping then re-nitriding the surface of the plates. If you are to do it I think that's the best way.
Really IMHO it's not worth it. My rule is if there are gouges on the face of the plate that you can catch your finger nail in, replace it. Most times irons need to be replaced due to a failed coolant seal wall more than anything.
If you want good compression, the #1 in making good compression is the rotor assembly - good apex seals, good springs, and side seals properly fit. Second is good rotor housings. Irons are a distant third if even that.
I would say 9 times out of 10 I've re-used irons. It's pretty uncommon to see wear deep enough that I'm concerned. Most times they are replaced due to coolant seal wall failure or a broken apex seal that chewed up the face of the iron (rare). The other thing is if you lap them or have some sort of process done you have to pay shipping on heavy and somewhat fragile parts 2 ways unless you're lucky enough to be local to someone who can do it.
I can easily feel the wear, on all surfaces, mostly at this point. Irons seem to have previously been lapped and I've been told nobody in Thailand re-nitrides the plates. This should really be a cautionary tale against using lapped plates. No point in building up an engine that won't last.
05-05-22, 08:55 AM
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