iron lapping/resurfacing service suggestion
06-15-17, 08:46 PM
#1
iron lapping/resurfacing service suggestion
I'm shopping around for a shop to get my irons lapped/resurfaced, however you wanna refer to it. I'm looking at chipp motorsports, racing beat and pineapple. There's big price differences between them and they all offer different services with the primary service of the lapping. I am looking for Guidance on which I should go with or of there are other shops I should be looking at. My irons have wear in one "quadrant" of the iron. It's enough that it can be felt but not enough to catch a nail on. I have have a dial indicator and I will have a real tolerance number at some point. I'm looking to get this service done within the next now so I'm ready to go once i figure out where the best value is. Chipp offers at lot with their service but is all of it really necessary? I'm not building a race engine or anything, just something to drive around with and have fun.
06-16-17, 08:18 AM
#2
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
I've used Chip in the past, dude knows his stuff and I've had nothing but good experiences. He's a bit pricey, but I'd rather pay a little more up front and not have to worry about it failing on me and costing me twice due to having it re-done multiple times.
If you're going to have your irons lapped I would HIGHLY suggest also having them re-nitrated, regardless of how much or how little you have removed...
Also, nice thing about Chips (I have no idea if the others do this as well) is that EVERYTHING is completely cleaned/stripped and replaced. I'm fairly certain he replaces the freeze plugs with new ones as well. When I got my irons back from him they looked better than the did when they were brand new!!
Unless something catastrophic goes down, I will exclusively use Chip for any type of engine machining.
If you're going to have your irons lapped I would HIGHLY suggest also having them re-nitrated, regardless of how much or how little you have removed...
Also, nice thing about Chips (I have no idea if the others do this as well) is that EVERYTHING is completely cleaned/stripped and replaced. I'm fairly certain he replaces the freeze plugs with new ones as well. When I got my irons back from him they looked better than the did when they were brand new!!
Unless something catastrophic goes down, I will exclusively use Chip for any type of engine machining.
06-16-17, 10:04 AM
#3
I'm shopping around for a shop to get my irons lapped/resurfaced, however you wanna refer to it. I'm looking at chipp motorsports, racing beat and pineapple. There's big price differences between them and they all offer different services with the primary service of the lapping. I am looking for Guidance on which I should go with or of there are other shops I should be looking at. My irons have wear in one "quadrant" of the iron. It's enough that it can be felt but not enough to catch a nail on. I have have a dial indicator and I will have a real tolerance number at some point. I'm looking to get this service done within the next now so I'm ready to go once i figure out where the best value is. Chipp offers at lot with their service but is all of it really necessary? I'm not building a race engine or anything, just something to drive around with and have fun.
You usually need to re-harden a part that has been gas-nitrided when taking off any significant amount of material because the hardness is superficial.
We produce both flame hardened and nitride hardened industrial rolls where I work. Gas nitride hardening is used in cases where parts are finish machined/complete and cannot suffer any distortion. The downside is that the case depth is extremely shallow. Depth of hardness for gas nitride is often thousandths deep VS fractions of an inch deep for flame/induction hardening.
06-16-17, 10:27 AM
#4
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
I'm pretty sure Chips re-nitrides the irons he laps, part of why is price is a bit high.
If you're not looking to spend a fortune or just need a part that's "good enough" I'd just buy another good used iron and go from there. Irons aren't that expensive new.
Remember, you can build a motor that will run, drive, and make power just fine with parts that many people would scoff at. You don't need to go THAT junky but you can find a happy medium. You may take a hit of a few points in compression numbers but as long as the motor is sound enough you'll most likely never notice it day to day.
Dale
If you're not looking to spend a fortune or just need a part that's "good enough" I'd just buy another good used iron and go from there. Irons aren't that expensive new.
Remember, you can build a motor that will run, drive, and make power just fine with parts that many people would scoff at. You don't need to go THAT junky but you can find a happy medium. You may take a hit of a few points in compression numbers but as long as the motor is sound enough you'll most likely never notice it day to day.
Dale
06-16-17, 05:52 PM
#5
Thanks for the input everyone. Chipp seems to be the concensus around the various forums. My irons are ported already so I would much prefer to reuse them. I will need to measure the wear to see where I stand. Does the nitriding really have that much value? It seems as though it's a special process that isn't really pressed by everyone as "essential". With this engine, I'm not going for a high power build or anything wild. The primary objective is "reliability" (as it applies to rotaries) and longevity. I would like to have this motor last 100k miles at least. That's my goal, so if the nitriding will help I will consider it. It's just incredibly expensive compared to everyone else. On top of the service cost, shipping both ways for these irons is gonna be a lot. They're heavy...... times 3. Cost in this situation is a factor but if I must, then I must. I would just prefer not to spend more than necessary. For the cost of what chipp offers, I can get my irons lapped and rotating assembly balanced going with mazdatrix. I'm really trying to justify the importance/value of the nitriding. If it was that important I feel like the other shops would mention or offer it as a service at least.
06-16-17, 06:11 PM
#6
F'n Newbie...
iTrader: (6)
As I understand it, if you lap your irons and it's enough to go past the original factory hardening/nitrating then you will see a rapidly increased wear rate, unless you have the surface re-hardened (through nitrating).
06-16-17, 09:39 PM
#7
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Yep. Also, if you want a REALLY good engine, rotor housings are where it's at. That's where you're gonna pick up compression and life.
Big thing here is you have to make a line in the sand somewhere - there is literally no end to how much money and effort you can sink into an engine.
So, make a spreadsheet and figure out the numbers on -
- Using your existing irons as-is
- Getting a used iron (or irons) to replace ones that have a lot of wear
- Getting the housings just lapped
- Getting the housings lapped and nitrided
- Buying a new Mazda crate engine for ~$4500 with new irons, rotor housings, everything
I've always ran used good shape irons, personally. Here's the thing - the iron is probably not going to be the thing that makes your engine conk out. Blown apex seal or failed water seal is 99% of the time the failure. The most common thing that will fail in an iron that makes it real bad is a break in the wall supporting the water seal, and most times that's due to a cooling system that hasn't been maintained right (change coolant once a year, 50/50 distilled water and Prestone, and you will be good BTW).
Anyhow, big thing I'm trying to say here is put the money where it will do the most good. Definitely spend the money on good apex seals (like RX Parts), spend the time on clearancing side seals, maybe save up for new rotor housings (or low mileage, or refurbished) - those are the things that will pay you back dollar for dollar.
And, yes, I have heard stories of irons lapped so the nitrided surface was gone and the iron wore out crazy fast. Or irons lapped so much that you have to oval the holes on the exhaust manifold so it will bolt on.
Keep asking questions and researching, figure out what's best for you. Remember, many of the engines you see people build are WAY overbuilt for their needs or built for race cars that will see extreme duty and abuse. Be realistic in your goals and be honest with what you will be using the car for.
Dale
Big thing here is you have to make a line in the sand somewhere - there is literally no end to how much money and effort you can sink into an engine.
So, make a spreadsheet and figure out the numbers on -
- Using your existing irons as-is
- Getting a used iron (or irons) to replace ones that have a lot of wear
- Getting the housings just lapped
- Getting the housings lapped and nitrided
- Buying a new Mazda crate engine for ~$4500 with new irons, rotor housings, everything
I've always ran used good shape irons, personally. Here's the thing - the iron is probably not going to be the thing that makes your engine conk out. Blown apex seal or failed water seal is 99% of the time the failure. The most common thing that will fail in an iron that makes it real bad is a break in the wall supporting the water seal, and most times that's due to a cooling system that hasn't been maintained right (change coolant once a year, 50/50 distilled water and Prestone, and you will be good BTW).
Anyhow, big thing I'm trying to say here is put the money where it will do the most good. Definitely spend the money on good apex seals (like RX Parts), spend the time on clearancing side seals, maybe save up for new rotor housings (or low mileage, or refurbished) - those are the things that will pay you back dollar for dollar.
And, yes, I have heard stories of irons lapped so the nitrided surface was gone and the iron wore out crazy fast. Or irons lapped so much that you have to oval the holes on the exhaust manifold so it will bolt on.
Keep asking questions and researching, figure out what's best for you. Remember, many of the engines you see people build are WAY overbuilt for their needs or built for race cars that will see extreme duty and abuse. Be realistic in your goals and be honest with what you will be using the car for.
Dale
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06-18-17, 10:33 AM
#9
Yep. Also, if you want a REALLY good engine, rotor housings are where it's at. That's where you're gonna pick up compression and life.
Big thing here is you have to make a line in the sand somewhere - there is literally no end to how much money and effort you can sink into an engine.
So, make a spreadsheet and figure out the numbers on -
- Using your existing irons as-is
- Getting a used iron (or irons) to replace ones that have a lot of wear
- Getting the housings just lapped
- Getting the housings lapped and nitrided
- Buying a new Mazda crate engine for ~$4500 with new irons, rotor housings, everything
I've always ran used good shape irons, personally. Here's the thing - the iron is probably not going to be the thing that makes your engine conk out. Blown apex seal or failed water seal is 99% of the time the failure. The most common thing that will fail in an iron that makes it real bad is a break in the wall supporting the water seal, and most times that's due to a cooling system that hasn't been maintained right (change coolant once a year, 50/50 distilled water and Prestone, and you will be good BTW).
Anyhow, big thing I'm trying to say here is put the money where it will do the most good. Definitely spend the money on good apex seals (like RX Parts), spend the time on clearancing side seals, maybe save up for new rotor housings (or low mileage, or refurbished) - those are the things that will pay you back dollar for dollar.
And, yes, I have heard stories of irons lapped so the nitrided surface was gone and the iron wore out crazy fast. Or irons lapped so much that you have to oval the holes on the exhaust manifold so it will bolt on.
Keep asking questions and researching, figure out what's best for you. Remember, many of the engines you see people build are WAY overbuilt for their needs or built for race cars that will see extreme duty and abuse. Be realistic in your goals and be honest with what you will be using the car for.
Dale
Big thing here is you have to make a line in the sand somewhere - there is literally no end to how much money and effort you can sink into an engine.
So, make a spreadsheet and figure out the numbers on -
- Using your existing irons as-is
- Getting a used iron (or irons) to replace ones that have a lot of wear
- Getting the housings just lapped
- Getting the housings lapped and nitrided
- Buying a new Mazda crate engine for ~$4500 with new irons, rotor housings, everything
I've always ran used good shape irons, personally. Here's the thing - the iron is probably not going to be the thing that makes your engine conk out. Blown apex seal or failed water seal is 99% of the time the failure. The most common thing that will fail in an iron that makes it real bad is a break in the wall supporting the water seal, and most times that's due to a cooling system that hasn't been maintained right (change coolant once a year, 50/50 distilled water and Prestone, and you will be good BTW).
Anyhow, big thing I'm trying to say here is put the money where it will do the most good. Definitely spend the money on good apex seals (like RX Parts), spend the time on clearancing side seals, maybe save up for new rotor housings (or low mileage, or refurbished) - those are the things that will pay you back dollar for dollar.
And, yes, I have heard stories of irons lapped so the nitrided surface was gone and the iron wore out crazy fast. Or irons lapped so much that you have to oval the holes on the exhaust manifold so it will bolt on.
Keep asking questions and researching, figure out what's best for you. Remember, many of the engines you see people build are WAY overbuilt for their needs or built for race cars that will see extreme duty and abuse. Be realistic in your goals and be honest with what you will be using the car for.
Dale
06-18-17, 02:31 PM
#10
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06-18-17, 10:27 PM
#12
either way, from what i am reading here and the other information around, i will be getting them lapped and nitrided. i just need to decide if im going with chipp or pineapple. from what i understand, pineapple doesnt do it in house and they actually take them "across the street" to be done. im going to call tomorrow and get more info on the service and cost versus what chipp offers. thanks for the input everyone, i will post before and afters of my irons.
06-18-17, 11:05 PM
#13
rotorhole
why would it matter if they take a part across the street?
it's pretty much a no as to whether chips has a nitriding booth and the equipment involved for that process so even he does not do it all in house. who's to say he actually does any of it in house? though i would probably lean to assume he does the lapping and reconditioning all with the exception of the nitride process.
as for the nitriding, all the core plugs, fittings and drifts should be replaced after the treatment due to the amount of heat involved.
all in all, its not much different than just replacing the iron at the end of the day.
it's pretty much a no as to whether chips has a nitriding booth and the equipment involved for that process so even he does not do it all in house. who's to say he actually does any of it in house? though i would probably lean to assume he does the lapping and reconditioning all with the exception of the nitride process.
as for the nitriding, all the core plugs, fittings and drifts should be replaced after the treatment due to the amount of heat involved.
all in all, its not much different than just replacing the iron at the end of the day.
06-19-17, 12:59 AM
#14
i dont care where they take it. the reason it matters is that when i call to ask questions, how much information on the process will they be able to tell me? i wasnt pointing it out saying it was an issue or anything.
and again... for the 3rd time i think, my irons are ported so i would prefer to keep them instead of buying another set and then have them ported.
and again... for the 3rd time i think, my irons are ported so i would prefer to keep them instead of buying another set and then have them ported.
06-19-17, 07:15 PM
#15
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you are much better off reusing slightly worn irons than you are lapping and then not coating the old ones.
so if you insist on lapping irons, re nitriding is a must.
06-20-17, 12:03 AM
#17
I have my own lapping machine I built here specifically to do irons and it works quite well- the only issue I have is no ability to re-nitride them, and nobody close by to do the nitriding. Someone in Australia would be able to do it, but I don't know who.
08-14-17, 12:18 AM
#18
i got my irons back from chip a very long time ago and they looked great. all new hardware all over and the nipple on the rear irons was replaced with a barbed fitting. they were also packed super nice. really nice. it probably took an hour or so for him to pack it from the way it looks. it was a great service, great process, i recommend it
