djseven

iTrader: (56)

Are your referring to the classics or the "Super Seals". I have seen first hand what he super seals do to rotor housings and that is why I dont personally run them. Unless the super seals have changed in the last 2-3 years I personally wouldnt recommend them.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

Back then, I was running C116 and straight meth injection.
Now Im running Q116 and 50/50

Jason, Alot of guys used these seals including myself, Anthony NYC, and Roan, and they warped on all of our cars. Your right they won't break, but they warp VERY easy.

Jason

iTrader: (5)

We run both classic and super and have had no issues with them. The first gen seals years ago had an issue warping under extreme heat but the newer ones dont have those issues.
In terms of housing wear we have torn down a couple that had 20k+ miles on them and the housings were in great shape. They are a harder seal so that is why I recommend them for non daily drivers and cars making higher HP. They will take a ton of abuse.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

The two engines I tore down I knew the mileage and condition of which the engines were used. Both engines had extreme wear on the housings and when they were built the housings were in great shape :why: Of course, this was years ago so things could have possibly changed. This was with the super seals. I know of one other person who had the same experience. I would love to see some pics of housings after 15k miles or so on the super seals as I would start using them/offering them if the housings didnt show any excessive wear.

turboR1

I make 500+rwhp on a completely stock port stock seals motor and it has not broken yet, I even tried but maxed out the power my turbo will provide so Im now going to throw another 200hp with a bigger turbo on it to see how it will hold up. Keep in mind at 500+ I did 89 dyno passes, several street races and basically beat the ***** out of it every single time I drove the car..

Ceramic would be the best option for high horsepower.
IMO next in line are STOCK MAZDA seals. which seal the best.

I dont think any apex seal manufacture right now or ever, spent or will spend the amount of money and R&D mazda has in developing an apex seal for the rotary. you might be able to make a stronger material but then you have sealing and destroying housing issues etc. Mazda created the best seal for overall use of the rotary IMO.

+1 on ErnieT's post about the aktins seals. I experienced the same problem in 3 of my prev engines. as well as some other motors I know of.

+1 on there being too many variables to determine this. I would blame the tuner or engine builder, air temp etc before I blame the seals. unless its aktins..

A real consistent and accurate test needs to be done on a engine dyno with no other changes but the seals themselves. same engine builder, same tuner, same air quality and temp, fuel etc to see the limits of the seals. I bet plates and other parts will start breaking before the seals do.

+1 again, i have personally seen 800hp on stock mazda seals. held up for a while but cant postively blame the seals for why it broke since it was overreved. This motor held such abuse that stock seals are being used again on the new motor.

turboR1

I dont believe the stock seals are the "risk" you are taking with a high horsepower rotary.

zenofspeed

iTrader: (1)

to the OP: For what its worth, I'm building a 450whp GT35r set-up using a completely stock motor. I'm going to use 50/50 water/meth.

I'm scared of 100% meth because it is flammable and you can't see the flame. And 100% water can freeze. 50/50 makes it freeze proof and it won't ignite.

IMHO, I would use AI for anything over 350whp. Once AI is installed, I think 2mm stock seals are fine until some higher CCP threshold. But where that threshold is might have more to do with cost of the build than the horsepower itself. At which point do you REALLY want to protect your investment? If I was spending the money on a 600whp build, you can bet your *** I'd use ceramic seals. But for a 450whp build, I'm happy with stock seals and AI. If they break, well ****, I guess I put in ceramics during the rebuild!

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

The newest thing to consider (previously brought up) is that most of us are currently (or will be in the future) injecting methanol. This will surely extend the life of our motors. At minimum I would run the OEM 3mm seals. In the future I'll surely use the NRS 3mm seals but for now I want to run what's already in use. I'll be opening up the ports on my motor a little more before spring and seeing what more I can squeeze out of the setup with some methanol. Either way I love this thread, it's just like asking if the OMP works on vaccume or filtered air

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

No. What will extend the life of the engine is water injection. water is what absorbs the most energy in the combustion chamber. it is what has the greatest effect on lowering ccps and also reducing/almost eliminating carbon build up.

if you want low iats AND lower ccps then run 50/50 water/meth. not the best of either world, but good from each.


I am completely comfortable running 425 whp on stock seals with a good ai system. If i have low intake temsp, low chamber temps, low knock, and good egts... with ai.. i doubt I will have any issues with the apex seals or carbon.

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

I'm sorry I forgot water injection... We're on the same page

YoshiFD3S

iTrader: (19)

I'm making 326hp/287tq at only 11psi on my 62-1 setup using stock seals.

What can I do to make it 400+rwhp...reliably?

I'm running

Turbonetics 62-1
550 primaries/1600 secondaries
Custom-made fuel-rail
Aeromotive FPR
Power FC
Walboro 255lph
HKS Twin Power Ignition
Running the 9-series spark plugs all the way around

Dyno graph of current setup:



My brother tells me that to run any more than 14psi I need race gas? Could someone shed some light on this for me?

The car is currently in Georgia which offers 93 octane fuel at every gas station.

However, the car will be shipped to San Diego around April, where the local gas stations only have 90 octane..

Suggestions?

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/making-case-rotary-powered-fd-fix-806104/

turbo10th

iTrader: (6)

I think Ernie needs to get Ray on here to post what he has found tuning these cars with different seals. I went with the atkins cryo'ds for my build since i am looking at the 500rwhp range and he said the mazda seals tend to warp and he has had a couple batches do this on fresh rebuilds. I would have went with NRS it my car was an all out race car and i had money to blow. I havent had good luck with any apex seals in my t2 because they dont like me racing and break when i am just about to pull away from a Jag at the top of 4th and 30 miles from home. I still drove it home.

ProjectD

iTrader: (15)

Boost controller and aux injection

YoshiFD3S

iTrader: (19)

I have a Profec B Series II, forgot to mention that.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

I've thought about cryo'ing the stock oem apex seals. I've pretty much cryo'ed the rest of my FD, so why not the seals ?

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

Atkins already does....

-J

YoshiFD3S

iTrader: (19)

That whole Methanol injection has me interested, but my brother insists that although it would allow for higher boost, that it doesn't offer enough fail-safes "worst case scenario" type stuff...and he is persistent that by pushing more boost, even with the aux injection, that I'd be killing the motor faster.

I mean sure, push a motor harder, boom....but ~18psi on my 62-1....if I had Methanol injection, or something similar....yes? No?

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

WATER injection is what lowers your combustion chamber temps. methanol lowers your intake temps. WATER injection helps clean your engine out. so you should be looking at water injection or a combination of water/meth if you are looking for performance/reliability.

Go read Howard's thread.

Lower combustion temps plus less carbon build up = longer lasting engine even at higher power.

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

Maybe it's a good time to talk about Swaintech Coatings. I've been looking into other companies that have a good reputation with ceramic piston coatings for some time now.

Ipohboy

iTrader: (1)

How about WPC treatment apex seal?

Makers racing, RE Amemiya and Mazdatrix offer the service/sell the apex seal.

RE-amemiya wpc

Makers-Racing WPC

Mazdatrix WPC

My knowledge about material science is limited but I think this thing should be good enough if Amemiya , Makers Racing and Mazdatrix sell it. lol

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Very interesting, I've never heard of this before.....

AnthonyNYC

iTrader: (3)

WPC has been around for quite some time and I also thought about coating a seat of apex seals but never got around to it. I first read about it about 2 years ago in an issue of Turbo Mag. Most of the formula one racecars coat their engine parts for strength and longevity. If I remember correctly from the article, the company that does it is located in California.

Anthony

blitzboy

To say they "will not break" is a bit of misinformation it may handle more abuse then stock, I had a set of these Aviation seals and I managed to chip these after my 8th pass on the track in one day two years ago damaged a housing and a rotor.

I run PTS seals now as I rather they warp then take out expensive housing,rotor,plate,tubby. If the tune is slightly out or there is a heat build up in the motor.

We have 3 drag cars over here running stock seals over 600-700hp plus, so stock "will not" limit power if your tune is correct, what aftermarket seals give you is more of a safety net

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I had 6k on my 2mm super seals when I massively detonated (long story) which I think cracked a corner seal. I pulled the RA super seals out and they were pretty much perfect condition according to all service manual inspection procedures (warpage test, width, height). The RA Super Seals were in such good shape after that massive detonation that I am reusing them. Yet I am replacing every other seal on the motor. I can't remark on the housing wear as the housings were used and there was just too little mileage on those seals. There wasn't any obvious extra wear though.

I would recommend RA seals to non daily drivers and high HP applications like Jason says. I know the Mazda seals are more balanced toward engine life and strength as opposed to just strength. If you are making big power though you are way more likely to lose a motor from a catastrophic failure than from the motor just wearing out.