D CUPS

iTrader: (1)

Hey guys,

Ive searched and cannot find more on this topic.

There are numerous claims the OEM 2piece seals can handle. My car is in the workshop as we speak and tuner claims it could only handle about 400whp because it still has the stock apex seals. Ive got a laggy Trust T88 on stock ports, stock seals and this is the amount of power they say it could only offer so far due to the seals.

RE-Amemiya claim 450PS at the engine with stock seals.

Another reputeable tuner here in OZ has proven 600whp (450rwkw's) with stock seals.

How much have you done or know of it could handle????

Thanks
Chester

rx7rcer09

im going to say its all in the build. if you do a bad build then they wont last long but if its a good build and a good port job they you could see good numbers. but if it was my build i would use either 2mm aircraft seals or 3mm seals.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

I think the answer to this question depends on whether or not you're using auxiliary injection to keep down chamber temps.

Dave

94Rx-7

iTrader: (2)

I agree with dgeesaman and it depends on you having the proper tune.

AWD-RWD racer

iTrader: (5)

324rwhp...lol mustang dyno. blew my engine twice. not saying thats the right answer. just made me chuckle.

Smitter

They can handle just as much power as any apex seal, can they not? its all in the tune

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

^^
Wrong. They will warp fast at high boost. And when they do break, it ain't pretty! As stated prior, an aux injection system is a must if you plan on staying with the stock seals at 500ish and up.

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

what about 425 whp? with ai? reliable?

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

I agree with all the above.

I should think they would be fine.. I'm running stock seals in mine, I'm pushing 18-19psi (according to the PFC, gauge reads 20psi) all day long and I've not noticed anything, yet. The dyno (Aussie type, Dyno-Dynamics) my tuner has shows 340rwhp, if translated over to comparable numbers in America I'd be seeing just over 400whp).

I think it depends entirely on temps, and tuning..

Fire your tuner.

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

I believe that Eric "LUPE" "VikingWarHammer" ran the oem 2pc at 603 whp on the 51r...

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

For how long though ? Was he using AI ?

:-) neil

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

There is a HUGE misunderstanding about AI..... There is NO magic "rwhp number" that you will all of a sudden need AI. I'd put it on anything from a stock motor to one making 4 times that of a stock motor. Hell, I'll put it on my lawn mower! and P.S. as far as AI goes, 100% WATER IS JUST FINE DAMNIT

-J

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

True, you don't *need* meth in order for A/I to do it's job. However most people will mix because of when each liquid works it's magic... Methanol will atomize very easily, and remove heat from the intake charge as it makes it's way towards the combustion chamber (and, since it's an alcohol, it helps to raise the overall "octane" level..) where as water doesn't atomize in the intake piping quiet as easily. Instead the water works it's magic inside the combustion chamber, leaching the latent heat from there LARGELY reducing the possibility of knock.


Either way, I would never use tap water in A/I... the closest I would get is to collect rain water if I lived in an area that got plenty of rainfall... Demineralized water is ALWAYS best..

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

I would say somewhere around a million, give or take. Seriously I think oem apex seals can take as much power as you throw at them. I dont know of hearing about any case where the apex seals just shattered from shear power.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

Some of you like to post to hear yourself talk. Why would you make a statement like OEM seals can take any amount of power you can throw at them, when you HAVE NEVER tested the limits of them?? I have.

mono4lamar

iTrader: (32)

Ernie, you do truly have more experience with products than 90% of us on here. I've seen people use them from 400-600whp but never did hear any follow up reports so I guess there's no sure life expectancy from them. When were you using the OEM 2mm seals? Was it in your days at KDR? I personally use the 3mm OEM seals and like them so far... Despite chatter marks on the the housings.

Anyway, I value your opinion and I'm not challenging you. I would just like to hear your detailed first hand experience with them. As far as 2mm seals that are non ceramic what did you have the best experience with? I think this thread is pretty geared to someone spending less than 800 on seals.

Tuning does have good portion to do with the life expectancy but I will agree with you though at high boost you're going to see expansion and warping. At high boost (load) or rpm either of those two can cause a catastraphic event.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

Im sure they will do well and they seal the best to a point, but if your going for big power, its not wise to use them. All engines fail at some point. Whether you ping for whatever reason or just loose compression over time. At which time with alot of power (600+) you don't want a seal that warps fast or shatters. The stock seals do this.

skir2222

Then what seal do you recommend?

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

NRS ceramic 3mm

Gorilla RE

iTrader: (1)

-J

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Obviously ceramic seals are much better than oem seals, they are also like $1200. The oem 2mm seals can take any amount of power a 2 rotor will produce, Im sure someone will find me a, insane drag car running of some crazy fuel with like 1000whp. Im talking about a car the op is likely to have, or any one is likely to have at that mater. I have never herd of apex seals just shattering from the shear power there engine made. Like I said oem 2mm apex seals can take any amount of power a 2 rotor could have and still do other thing besides get trailered to a drag-strip, and run the 1/4. I can also guarantee that a 6-700 horse 2 rotor will fail from something else before the apex seals desinagrate from the huge power. Im also not saying the apex seals can't fail at all. There are many other things that will break apex seals like running lean and overheating the seals causing failure(my engine is premixed, lean means hot for me no oil metering pump). I have seen a set of ceramics lost due to running lean and fracturing the apex seals. Detonation at the right point can destroy apex seals, and so on. I want you to show me where apex seals just desinagrated from not being able to handle massive power, only from the horse power not any thing else. All of the other problems that could destroy an apex seal have nothing to do with the PHYSICAL limit a 2mm seal is claimed to have.

djseven

iTrader: (56)

Didnt you run a full season on Atkins 2mm seals at over 700rwhp?

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

I could have sworn Atkins seals were the same material as oem apex seals, the only difference is that the atkins seals are not hardened like mazda seals.

fendamonky

iTrader: (6)

I'm pretty sure Ernie is saying what he's saying because he has had/seen it happen personally.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

Mr FDWarrior, you obviously like to type what everyone else has typed or said, but it seems by your post you "think" something will hold, tells me you have NO first hand knowledge so why spread hearsay? Just don't post it unless you know it to be true first hand or your no better than the next guy spreading rumors.

Yes I ran Atkins seals for over a year. They actually desinagrated from the intake charge temps, slowly loosing compression.