FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Hey guys...got a ? for you electric gurus out there.

I recently got a new battery (under warranty), and it died on me already. Granted, I did give it hell when trying to crank the engine when it was flooded, but I have a battery charger, charged it fully, and whenever I come to start the car (once every week or two), the battery's ALWAYS weak. After I drive for a bit, and the alternator's running, it gets better. But if I leave it and try cranking it the next day, it's already weak again.

I don't think the battery's bad; I think there's something electrical that's draining the battery, as the other battery was working fine, and died all of a sudden after I had some electrical/audio work done.

I haven't the faintest idea how to go about testing if something's slowly draining the battery or not...so some direction would be great. And break it down for me plz, dummy style

Thanks
~Ramy

jimlab

Do you mean after you shut off the car again? While the engine is running, the alternator is powering everything, not the battery. The battery is just another accessory while the engine is running. The battery only comes into play when you're using accessories (like a stereo) with the engine off, or when starting the car. You knew that, right?

Because it's not holding a charge, because it was drained too far to recover...

I'd bet you're wrong.

Good guess...

Gee, I'll bet there's some connection.

How about a stethoscope? Nope, better make that a multimeter.

What causes my battery to drain overnight?

BlueRex

If you are going to leave your car undriven for an extended period it's a good idea to pull off the negative cable so the battery isn't drained by systems such as alarms. Some even recommend trickle chargers for extended periods without use, although my battery sits on the shelf for 3 months at a time and has no problem starting the car up. A week or two without use shouldn't warrant taking either of these steps with a healthy battery.

I have successfully reused fully discharged batteries before, but IIRC whether or not the battery will be reusable has a lot to do with how long it is left without a charge as the elements within the battery decay. Either way your warranty is still good so go pick up a fresh red top.

POS7

yeah, I noticed the fd will drain batteries faster than other cars. Probably has something to do with electronical componenents such as the stock alarm, keyhole lights, etc.

If you let the car sit for a week or two, and the battery is weak, I'd say this is normal. However, if you run the car for a while, maybe an hour or so, the battery should be charged and start the next day. If not, I'd say theres something wrong with your battery or you have something draining it.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Wow Jim...what crawled up your a$$ today??

Yes I know that, but doesn't the alternator recharge the battery? And what I'm saying is, it'll recharge it enough so if I have to run somewhere, when I come out, the battery will crank (weakly), but at least it'll start the car. So there's improvement. And yes, that's after I shut it off again.

From just once? And recharging it won't help anymore? How come it seems to work better after driving the car around?

Well I said this because I don't expect a week-old battery to die THAT quickly...

Are you bored?

That's what I figured... but you're telling me an alarm system when DISARMED will kill your battery? I left it disarmed (car's inside the garage), and I'm still having problems w/ the battery. I know lots of people w/ alarms. I just don't think it's logical to assume or conclude that an alarm will kill your battery like that.

Ok...I take it back. You musta had breakfast today

Yea I know I know...but I was lazy because I didn't want to have to set all the presets in my radio again LOL. That, and I didn't anticipate not driving her for THAT long...

Well again, the battery was new, just put it in to start her, and was cranking for a good 20 min or so (not straight! lol) trying to unflood her. Almost had her, but my starter was cutting in and out, so I had to get that replaced. From that point on (again, on the new battery), she's been having trouble starting up. I put the recharger on her overnight (won't overcharge), then took it off. Showed 100% charge. Came to start the car (don't remember if it was right then and there, or later the same day), but the battery BARELY was able to start the car. I mean BARELY.

Again what's got me wondering is, how come when the ALTERNATOR recharges the battery a bit, it's a lot better (ie after driving some), but when I put an electric charger it doesn't seem to help any? (It'll still lose charge after I drive her, but immediately after the drive, she's good for a few hours haha)

POS7, thanks for the point, and that's why I posted this. This is indeed abnormal...

jimlab

Jeez, and here I thought I'd answered your question on how to find the parasitic drain...

Which means that your battery is fucked.

It's not holding a charge. It should start the car without issue if the car sat for 2 weeks. Can you honestly say you could let the car sit for two weeks and the battery would still start it? If not, then your battery is fucked. If you don't believe me, take it to a Schuck's/Pep Boys/Whatever and have them test it.

If the problem that killed the first one still exists, what did you expect?

You didn't specify that it was an alarm that you had installed, but yes, it can kill your battery even when disarmed.

Many electronic devices require constant power to maintain settings, including alarms. You've probably added even more electronic crap, and if you have aftermarket electronic gauges or a turbo timer, or an electronic boost controller, they all likely require power to maintain settings also.

That's a hell of a lot of abuse, if you didn't know that already.

A dead battery can take and show a 100% charge. It just won't maintain it, obviously.

SPOautos

what battery do you have?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Yea but it would be great w/o the mocking, that's all

I believe you. They're going to have to test it either way in order to give me a new one.

Well actually the first time around, I thought it was because it was the battery's time. I have a Greddy Pulley, so the alternator runs what... 25% slower? Add to that the massive sound system I have (but I have a cap too), and I figured that's what did it. Didn't think it was the alarm system at all.

My God...that's crazy. So anytime I store her, I'm gonna have to d/c the terminals?

I understand that, but I don't have any of those. Defi gauges don't have presets. Don't have a turbo timer or electronic boost controller.

Yes I understand, but I didn't think it would KILL a fresh battery. Would you suggest I hook up the battery charger (in the "Start" position, so it'll crank the car for me) in the future, when flooded?

Gotcha...didn't know that. I thought if it was dead, it can't even reach 100%.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Optima Red Top, Part #35, Model #35 (the one w/ the terminals switched). Ray @ PFS did comment about how that battery seemed a bit smaller than the ones they use, but it's what came up on the computer @ Advance Auto for the FD. Anyone else what part & model # they use for Red Tops (w/ the terminals switched)?

jimlab

Well next time, try using GOOGLE...

As I've said before, you don't seem to be absorbing a lot in your time spent here. At the very least, you should be an old hand at using the search feature by now, and for using Google to answer some of your questions.

Your cap is just another battery, for all intents and purposes, but one with very little storage capacity. It helps maintain voltage when the charging system is not able to keep up with your amplifier's current demands, but only for very short periods of time.

They don't require a connection with constant 12V? Even my GReddy peak hold boost gauge did. Anything which requires a constant 12V connection is going to leach some amount of current from the battery over time. Start there.

Yes. Then you should figure out what's causing your engine to flood. Mine never did.

BLKTOPTRVL

Use a digital ammeter to check for a battery drain. You will have to account for minor drains that will always be there to the computers and the clock and such... But if you know what the average drain is (from other owners), then you should be able to see if you have an excessinve drain.

BlueRex

If that's the truth I think we've found a large part of the problem, Ramy has guages galore.

And on a side note cranking the engine will stress the battery, but as I said previously a healthy battery should be able to handle abuse like this no problem. Whenever I do take my battery off the shelf and start the car up I normally remove the EGI fuse and crank the **** out of the engine to lube everything up well before I start it. Still has given me no problems, but I'm not using a fancy red top, I prefer the cost effective kirkland battery.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I like the forum better

I'll admit, I didn't search initially. Then I found this thread https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/battery-keeps-draining-itself-365666/, which ironically I had posted in a while back I'm tired...leave me alone lol.

Gotcha.

It does require a constant 12V, but it doesn't have peak hold etc... And I've had the gauges in for a year now, never had a problem until after the alarm was installed (around 2 months ago). So the gauges are fine, thank you very much

It doesn't happen often. Or at least often enough for me to bother trying to fix it now, when a rebuild's on the way anyways...

Kento

Not necessarily. If you sit there cranking on the starter on and off for 20 minutes like he said without driving the car long enough to allow the alternator to replenish the battery charge, letting the battery sit undercharged allows the internals to deteriorate. The same applies for having accessories pull a constant drain without driving the car enough to replenish the battery charge. Do this too many times and eventually the internals corrode to the point that they are unable to hold enough energy to maintain a charge.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

So would an Optima Yellow Top aka Deep Cycle battery be better suited in such a situation? Because they say they designed that battery for situations where the battery does not get adequately recharged...and it's not even that good for frequent cranking. Sounds like it's better suited for my type of driving.

jimlab

I figured as much.

In other words, you like other people to do your searching and thinking for you.

SPOautos

Yea, if you get another battery get the Deep Cycle version

Did you have this alarm installed or did you do it yourself? If you had it done I'd take it back to them so they can go over thier work and correct any problems they might have made. I'm sure if you tell them everysince they installed the alarm the battery keeps dieing they will take a look at everything.

Stephen

93 R1

hook an amp meter inline with one of the battery cables. shut the car off wait 5 minutes for everything to "shut down" and you draw shouldn't be more then probably 50-75 milliamps I would guess. Anymore then that and you should look into whats drawing it down.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Jim, there's no need to push an agenda when it isn't supported by the facts...

In plain English, the gauges have been in the car for OVER a year. That's more than 365 days. And I never had a single problem, ever. Plus, they do NOT have peak, hold, or warning functions. Don't confuse the other gauges w/ the Defi D's that I have. Gauges aren't the prob, and I know that for sure. Next...

No in other words at least on the forum I'll be getting FD-specific answers, and chances are someone w/ the same car and similar setup has had the same prob, and can chime in w/ their experience, rather than searching the vast internet for a very generalized problem. It could very well be an FD-specific problem, so starting w/ the forum first is a better choice IMO.

And no, I'm not looking for people to do my searching/thinking for me. I contribute to this forum just like others. I help w/ what I know, as little or great as that may be, and others help w/ what they know. It works out pretty nicely that way. Also, I couldn't remember the term "parasitic draw" and terminology lots of times makes the diff between making a search long and expansive, or quick and focused.

Lastly, while I understand the whole checking for any current being drawn, I don't think my alarm, gauges, etc were wired into a fuse (yes, I'm gonna have to go back and do that). So pulling fuses won't help from what I understand. That helps when it's an integral part of the car (ie stock) that's drawing current continuously, and that part's wired to a fuse... I can pull fuses all day, and if it's the alarm, it won't show.

Stephen, will do.

It was done professionally. I'm def. gonna take it back to them, and have 'em check it out.

93 R1, yea I got that part, how to tell if more current's being drawn, but again, my question is how can I go about isolating WHAT is drawing that current, given that the prime suspect is the alarm, and it's not hooked up to a fuse?

jimlab

In my experience, someone with scissor doors is a likely candidate for more gauges than a 747. Are you saying you don't have several gauges?

And you don't know the first thing about electrical systems, obviously.

If you keep plugging appliances into the same wall socket, eventually you're going to have a problem. Same goes for a car. It all adds up, and while the gauges themselves may not be the problem and may have worked fine for OVER a year, other things that you've added recently are obviously pushing your electrical system over the limit.

The features that they have while on are irrelevant. We're talking about what they're doing when "off", obviously, because that's what's draining your battery. Things that are requiring power while the ignition is off...

See above.

Battery drain is not limited to FDs, nor is it a very generalized problem, and search engines like Google are intended to let you easily find what you're looking for in the "vast Internet".

"Battery drain" didn't come to mind? I think that's pretty close to the technical terminology I used to find you an article on how to troubleshoot...

I'm done helping you Ramy. You're not worth the effort.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

That has NOTHING to do w/ the situation at hand. Your bias against what I do to my car is inconsequential. You don't see me giving you flack for ditching the rotary and going against the very fiber of how this car was designed, do you? But some people have the aching need to impose their views and opinions on others. That's where you and I differ. And furthermore, I simply do NOT look to you for approval, and never will.

I have no prob admitting I often look to you for help and info, because you do know a lot. But unfortunately, in all of your years, you still have yet to learn the art of discussion and mutual respect. Always hostile, always in people's faces. I dunno what made you such an ogre Jim, but I hope it changes one day, because your mannerisms make all that knowledge of yours useless when people won't even lend an hear to hear it...

See, there you go again w/ your insults. I DO understand that you can overload a system, demanding too much of it. But I have no idea HOW you find out what that point is, or when you've reached it. That's why I'm here, on the forum.

I really don't understand what you expect of me...I openly admit I don't know much about cars, but this forum has helped me grow tremendously. And I'm very thankful for that. But it'll be years before I gain substantial insight into the inner workings and details of automotive mechanics and the 1001 systems and components that go along w/ it (electrical systems included). But you know what? That's just fine by me...because I'm NOT a mechanic, and prob never will be one. That doesn't mean I can't and shouldn't enjoy an incredible car. If that's the case Jim, ppl shouldn't have the right to live because they don't know how their body works and how to properly take care of it? Don't be so hypocritical, because I can spout so much medical info - most of which is VERY technical - that you'd have no idea what I was talking about. But again, humility is a characteristic I strive for, not trying to remind everyone what superiority complex I have, and how ignorant they are...

See above.

Hey you may very well be right, but I don't understand how/why it would pull any power when it has nothing to remember. It zeros when off, has no memory functions etc, and resets every single time you turn to the accessories position. But if you insist it is pulling power, I guess I'll take your word for it, because I'm sure you know better.

Yes, but how would I differentiate it from a FD specific problem? Whatever...I see your point, but I don't think you see mine. There are multiple ways to go about solving a problem, and yours isn't always the right or only way. Besides, it's not like I came on asking 'how can I make 400rwhp!" or some other question that's been asked 1001 times. If it was such a bad question, I don't think others would have bothered to answer. So chill out Jim.

See above.

Whatev Jim. Suit yourself. You're the one that thrives on "Jimlab nutswingers" not myself. I'll take whatever info I can from whoever's willing to give it. I'm actually one of the few that is patient about your absolutely nasty mannerisms because I think your knowledge could be a great asset to this forum. But sometimes even your attitude is too much to handle. And that's something you CAN do something about. My lack of knowledge about cars, however, at this present time, isn't. And at least I'm not afraid to admit it.

jimlab

Probably because you know how little I care, and how stupid I think people are who say things like "against the very fiber" and "tearing out the soul" in relation to a vehicle...

You have to earn respect. Something your generation doesn't seem to understand.

Did you even LOOK at the link in my first post?

I doubt that. Do you think my knowledge only extends to cars?

Perhaps you're not humble enough. I gave you the answer to troubleshooting your problem in my first post and you're still arguing with me that it can't possibly be your gauges and blah blah blah...

But not motivated enough to do anything about it, apparently...

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Being that it's a Rotary Experiment, and the rotary and sequential twins define the car, I think it's very logical to say such things.

I don't think it's anything to do w/ your generation. Don't speak for all of it, because you're not representative. Many people were taught to give respect until given a reason to stop doing so. You're on the other side... you give none until someone does something that warrants it. That's a very negative approach. And I'm very curious WHO on this forum, who has a rotary, you respect?

I did, but I didn't read it yet. I'm gonna get to it later tonight when I have time to fiddle w/ the car some. That, and I was too busy replying to your antagonistic posts.

I do. Sure, you've got a pretty wide knowledge base, but lets not kid ourselves here Jim. You're not exactly a surgeon either. If you'd like to prove me wrong, I'd love to see you take the Boards

Me not humble? My God. My posts are full of me admiting my lack of knowledge. But as you noted earier, if I understood something in one way, I'm not quick to drop what I believe/understand just because someone else says something different. That's why I'm always asking WHY. Validation is something that I think is very important, and Kento's pointed that out to me here and there when I've failed to do so. So don't take it that I don't trust your word or think you're knowledgeable Jim. If that was the case, and I wasn't humble, I wouldn't PM you my questions, now would I?

Humbleness, however, is best exemplified when you KNOW the answer, but make little effort to demonstrate your knowledge. It's the exact opposite of pompousness, and in all honesty, I think a little humbleness and humility is def. something you should give some thought to. Seriously.

No, it's called priorities. Try having the demands I have in my life, and pursuing a wealth of information as a hobby. I earnestly believe striving to get as much info from this forum speaks volumes of my motivation. When I have the time to pursue it further, I will.

BlueRex

True, but my statement was made on the likely assumption Ramy was recharging the system after cranking since he did say that he had a battery charger and would "drive for a bit" after starting it.

suganuma

This is ridiculous. Where did the rx7forum go?

93 R1 answered your question if you didn't notice....