capt. bill1

After reviewing the info at:
home.kscable.com/ssutton/miata/engine/toluene.html
I put 2 gals of toluene to a fresh full tank of 93 octane. By the calculations from the site that should be a little over 10% for about 95 + octane. And yes it works! Car runs real smooth, seems to rev quicker and no 3000 rpm stumble. Also the 4500 rpm turbo change seems smoother with less power drop. Pulls smoother at lower rpm in higher gear. Now this is all seat of the pants, so after I finish having some things added to my engine (including a J&S knock sensor) I will take it to the dyno and run it with and without the toluene and report back on what I find.

RonKMiller

THIS IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!!!!!!! TOLULENE (NOT TOLUENE) IS HIGHLY TOXIC AND A DANGEROUS CARCINOGEN. YOU MAY DIE IF YOU TRY THIS!!!!! IF ANYONE WANTS TO DEBATE ME ON THIS YOU BETTER BE BONED UP ON ORGANIC CHEMISTRY AND BENZENE RINGS. ALTHOUGH AVAILABLE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC TOLULENE SHOULD ONLY BE HANDLED BY AN EXPERIENCED CHEMIST UNDER LABORATORY CONDITIONS. BREATHING THE VAPORS OR EXHAUST BY-PRODUCTS CAN CAUSE RESPIRATORY ARREST! THIS IS PURE BULLSHIT AND IS BEING PROPOGATED BY AN INCREDIBLY IGNORANT PERSON!!!!!!!! ANY PERFORMANCE GAINS ARE TRANSITORY AND YOU RISK KILLING YOURSELF AND ANY BYSTANDERS AS WELL AS GROWING A THIRD ARM OUT THE TOP OF YOUR HEAD. BEWARE.

artguy

not to mention that 3000 rpm stumble has nothing to do with the fuel hahaha...its has to do with the ECU/amperage...not enough ground wires if Im not mistaken.

j

slim7

I'm curious, after all what's the main ingredient in gas drier, ALCOHOL (isopropyl to be specific). I'm certain it costs a lot less than $3 a pint if you go to the local Walgreens ($0.99).

RonKMiller

Good man, at least you know what you're dealing with! I personally prefer my alcohol in 6 packs! (BTW - isopropyl displaces H2O - but you already knew that.) Don't use gas drier any more than you need, it dessicates (removes moisture) from O rings and other rubber parts, and we need to keep our O rings intact as long as possible. The best way to keep H2O from your gas?? - Keep your tank full, especially in cool, humid weather.

capt. bill1

Test

capt. bill1

It`s funny that you think I am not spelling toluene correctly. Besides the fact that that is how it is spelled on the cans if I do a web search for toluene I come up with well over a hundred hits. were as if I do a search for tolulene I come up with 0. What can I say? Did you do any research? Maybe toluene is not as toxic as you think? Is Mobil lying when they say in their spec sheet for toluene that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly"? As far as being a carcinogen, name something other that pure H2O that is not at the right levels. I have been using toluene as a solvent on and off for years with no ill effects so far. If it can only be handled safely by a trained chemist under laboratory conditions tell us why you can buy it at any hardware or paint store with no special restictions? Talk about bullshit? Did you know that it makes up 14% of Chevrons aviation fuel? Did you that it is in on the shelf octane boosters? Did you know that some F 1 cars ran it at 84 % concentrations at one time? No? Neither did I till I did some research. And if my exhaust fumes can cause " respiratory arrest" how come everyone closely involved with the F 1 cars that ran 84 % toluene are not dead? That`s 8 times the consentration that I am running. Talk about ignorant. And yes, the 3000 rpm stumble is said to be do to poor grounding. But it is also said to be do to the transition point between the primary and secondary injectors. So you could say it is fuel related also. All I know is that I have improved the grounding in my car and I still get the stumble at times. But since increasing the octane level of my gas with toluene I don`t seem to have any stumble. And of course the performance gains are transitory, but they come back as soon as I add more toluene. Feel free to flame away, just point me to some facts with the flames. Hey, like I said, this is all seat of my pants and my *** may be wrong.

Chaotica7

Here, check this out. It certainly doesn't make toluene sound as bad as you do. And it sounds alot more legitimate as well.

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemi...ealth_tol.html

It also makes it clear that toluene has not been found to be carcinogenic in laboratory tests.

DK

iTrader: (5)

Bill, you're right ... it's toluene by common name, which is a benzene ring with a methyl group (C6H5CH3) or "methyl benzene" by IUPAC nomenclature. "Tolulene" does not exist. I'm not using big words here to look fancy, I was just two classes short of a chem major from one of the best chemistry departments in the world before I decided that I really liked economics instead. Oh and I took an O-chem class in 10th grade, 12th grade at the best public HS in the nation, freshman year, and junior year ... as well as being a research assistant to a professor at UNC for a year and a half while he wrote his O-chem book. But that was all lame ...

That's weird, I just found a split end on one of my arm hairs.

rxrotary2_7

will this stuff harm anything. i am far from a chem major. i do know that gas is flamable. lol
xylene is the one i am wondering about.

please let me know what your feelings are on this. i know that the higher the octane, the slower it burns. it also doesnt add any hp, it just gives you that much more of a "cussion" against detonation? ???? is this right?

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html

DK

iTrader: (5)

Xylene is similar to toluene in structure, but it has two methyl groups attached to the benzene ring instead of one (C6H4(CH3)2), which can be arranged in 3 different patterns, otho (beside each other, like a 2:00 arrangement), meta (one carbon between them, 4:00 arrangement), and para (across, 6:00 arrangement). Hmmm ... yeah I hope I remember the positions correctly. You're right, it's highly flammable, both as a gas and liquid.

Both xylene and toluene affect primarily the nervous system by making you dizzy, have a headache, vomit, etc in the short run ... in the long run or massive conectrations this can lead to passing out and/or respiratory failure (this is common sense). Unlike many benzene compounds, neither xylene nor toluene have been classified as a carcinogen (a cancer promoting agent). Logically, they both may also harm reproductive success in large quantities. RonKMiller's level of alarm is silly. It's good that he's looking out for people, but some perspective must be gained. Unless you're leaving the container open sitting around in your house or you decide to take a bath or drink the stuff, there's no real cause for alarm for the casual exposure to it, either of them. You're exposed to more harmful things by fueling your car on a warm day. As long as you open the container, pour it, close it, and then wash yourself (relatively soon if you spill it on yourself) then you're gonna be fine.

And your understanding of octane rating is pretty good. It's an index of resistence to detonation, which means higher octane will allow for higher compression (more boost, etc.).

capt. bill1

Thanks for the back up DK. I have the feeling we may never hear from RonKMiller again on this subject. And again as I said, anybody who is interested in this should do their own research. Don`t rely on me or any other one person. And for the record, I never said it will make HP by itself, just that like any other octane booster it will allow you to make more HP by using other methods. Remember, todays cars have ECUs that can tailor the timing and boost to the level and/or on set of knock in the engine. So less or no knock can = more HP.

DK

iTrader: (5)

Oops, I just noticed I mistyped "ortho" as "otho" when I was reading back through my post on xylene. Just a finger slip, not like an extra "L" proclaimed in there to complete rewrite all of the chemistry books, industrial production methods, and lab research from the last 200 years (just picking on you Ron, no big deal! ). I never manage to type well on this BBS, it's really funny. Oh well, it's not like I'm writing for chem or ecnomic research for publication anymore. Also the meta isomer tends to be the most prevalent form, and it, along with the ortho are the ones most flammable if my memory serves me correctly ... although that doesn't quite make intutive sense to me right this second because the meta is the preferred substitution. Hmmmm ... oh nevermind, I understand it now, the carbocation resonance form is more stable as a para because the ethyl- groups are across from each other and identical. Blah blah blah ... If this made sense to you then I'm sorry. What a dork I am. I quit chemistry.

Bill is right, especially lots of Japanese cars have higher octane fuel maps because they have much higher octane available regularly over there. Our 93 octane "premium" is considered "base garbage" in Japan, according to reports from the field. I'm sure Alf (soul assasin) or Rob (sokudo) can tell you more about gas over there.

Ulator

Hey DK,

scary man... I'm a chem major and did that crap for 6 years before I got my head out of my *** and figured out there's a hell of a lot more money in computers... You brought back a lot of bad nightmares of O-chem ... Thanks buddy!

DK

iTrader: (5)

Ulator,

Glad I could help! Man, it really opened up a part of my brain I hadn't used in a while! Oh well, yeah most people had O-chem nightmares, I thought it was easy. When I took it first semester freshman year I never went except on the 3 test days and the final because the class was at 9:00 a.m. and on the other side of campus ... still made an A-. That's how I became a research assistant for that teacher -- he was working on his book and I was never in class when he returned the tests (obviously) so I literally didn't know my exact grade, but I was confident. Finally, after the 3rd test was returned and he still had all 3 of mine he looked me up and called me and was like "Mr. King, come get your tests." So I went to his office hours and told him I was confident enough in my O-chem to not go to class (and only study the night before tests) and he offered me the position. I sound like a geek, I'm really not. I never went to class because I was too busy hungover and sleeping around. Anyways ... I'm good at chemistry, but I don't like it.

rxrotary2_7

i wasnt saying that you ever said this. i was just wondering if my understanding of it was correct.

so what is the final take on xylene?
is it "safe" for the engine? i dont care so much about myself. i mean, my smoking habbit is bad enough. i know that rubbing alcohol will dry out rubber parts, but what effect will xylene have on the internals of the engine? if any.
i cant follow all your inside bull S jargon you guys are discussing. please fill me in on effect of the engine and octane levels.

rxrotary2_7

bump^^^^^^

capt. bill1

rxrotary2_7 My octane = HP statement was not meant to be directed only at you. I just wanted anyone reading this thread to be clear on what I meant about how you can use higher octane fuel to get more HP. As for xylene as an octane booster, take a look at the site: [URL=http://www.vtr.org/maintain/gasoline-octane.html]
It talks about using xylene and other chemicals as octane boosters.

Porkgrisle

I have personally used xylene myself, it was however in a supersharged civic si, with no xylene I would get valve clatter which is on the verge of detonation, with one gallon per fill up no detonation at all. Haven't needed it yet on my FD, but it does work.

rxrotary2_7

but how safe is it? totaly safe? some side effects?

capt. bill1

rxrotary2-7, What the **** IS totaly safe? Do some research. It`s all out there, just go look at it and make up your own mind.

rxrotary2_7

sorry captain. didnt mean to **** you off. i guess you know everything and have done all your own research, and came to all your own conclussions, and have never asked any questions because you will find out on your own, you dint need anyone else's experience. praise be to the captain!
i was wondering what the xylene does to the different internals of the engine, if any. i was wondering if maybe anyone had a web site to direct me to where studdies have been done on rotary engines. not in a regular piston engine. not just in octane levels of gasoline. gasoline is just one of the factors involved here. gas itself is harmful to the rotary due to the detergents in gasoline. there is info out there about that....just wondering about xylene. you know what....its not worth my time to fight w/ you. so **** off.


btw....thanks for the last url you gave me to go look up. i posted that site captain.

capt. bill1

Look rxrotary2-7, the what the **** is totaly safe comment was not made in anger, more out of frustation. You seemed to want me or someone else to tell you , yeah, go ahead put this stuff in you`r engine, everything will be fine. Well, I`m not going to do that. I don`t want you or anybody else doing that then coming back here telling everybody how it`s my fault you`r engine took a dump. So you`r welcome for the links. And thanks, I love to **** off.

yomamasmama

**** all you arguing bitches:p

seems legit, i work at a research facility and i might be able to get my hands on this stuff (esp. xylene)

but what places sells this stuff commercially? can you also give me a good online shop?

what works better, xylene or toluene?

does it increase carbon build up?

Want2race

try your local paint store.... They sell it in 55 gallon drums and 5 gallon bottles.... Its a common paint stripper..