MDoMe7

i used to have that same problem and i'm only 5'9".
like everyone else says, i found that using the side of the foot lets you circumvent the problem....i dunno if it's right but i got used to it....
using the side of your foot lets you move your leg a little more to the right of the steering wheel
here's a little diagram

clayne

Totally dangerous.

KEEP BALL OF FOOT PLANTED ON BRAKE PEDAL.

clayne

BTW: While it may not be *necessary* to double-clutch with syncromesh transmissions - it surely doesn't hurt and is better in the long run.

Larz

True. Synchros can only take much. And it primers you for driving endurance events were you want to be as gentle as possible on the transmission. Or else you may not finish the race.

saxyman990

I agree completely with Clayne on this one. You need to keep your ball on the brake. I'm also 5'9" and I have NO problems heel/toeing it.

I've found that a lot of people have improper driver's posture. Proper driving position can hep alleviate problems like that. (course, that probably doesn't apply to those of you over 6')

Rob

alberto_mg

Make that a 3rd from me. Under hard hard braking(especially on a bumpy surface) your foot can slide off with that side thing. I also don't see how you can do a fast 5-4-3 downshift at track speeds rolling your foot like that. If you can get the ***** of your foot hard on the brake you'll have more control. Practice makes perfect. Or better anyway.

Again the limiting factor here is the steering wheel. Its just too big for taller people or those of us with long legs. Getting a smaller wheel or a D-cut wheel like the Sparco Mugello should go a long way to alleviating the problem. A seat that sits lower can also help, but that is a lot more expensive than a steering wheel.

cruiser

cloud9, sometimes you need to brake even when not in straight line. This is where the correct heel-toeing shines compared to "normal" driving. I do it on track & street regulary.

cloud9

iTrader: (4)

Yes you should be heel-towing right after hard straight line braking, but not in a turn. And yes I agreed about having to brake at other times than just in a straight line which is why I mentioned trail braking in my last post (which you defined in one of your older posts)

cruiser

So you leave it in a higher gear in a decreasing radious turn ? Sometimes you need to downshift in a turn. How do you do it otherwise ?

blackmr2turbo

no you don't want to shift in a corner at high speeds, trust me.

rynberg

Well, upshifts happen all the time in corners. As far as downshifting goes, there would never be a reason to downshift in the corner if you were at "high speeds". But certain race tracks will require you to brake and downshift in a corner -- hell, the F1 guys have to do that at the Malaysian circuit. That's the whole point of heel-toeing, to downshift without unsettling the car.

blackmr2turbo

i downshift before i enter a kinda sharp corner, if you ever have to downshift in a corner, say when your at the apex, that means you go in too fast and possibly not in the right gear for that particular turn, and that is why you want a wide powerband. well i do agree that there's some situations where you need to downshift in a corner, but i dont see them too often. correct me if i'm wrong

cruiser

So what do you do ?

cruiser

My point exactly.

cruiser

I said in a decreasing radious turn. There you dont have any other option IMHO.

alberto_mg

you got the idea cruiser. i'd say practice while the car is parked so you get comfortable with the foot movements and then just keep doing it on the street.

there will be times when you don't blip the throttle enough or you'll blip it too much, but you'll get there if you practice. its just like learning how to hit an apex correctly.

clayne

BTW, if it means anything, I just replaced the clutch in my Civic - a car which has been double-clutch rev-matched on downshifts for the majority of it's life.

162K on the original clutch.

RX7SpiritR

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you. This technique works excellent, since its the one I use. I'm 6'1" but I never had the problem of my thigh hitting the steering wheel.....but anyways I just use this technique and everything works out fine.

Chronos

I'm currently reading "Drive to Win" by Carroll Shelby and he goes into a big long talk about the relevance of downshifting in today's automobiles...he basically said that it was a technique used widely "back in the day" to save the brakes, with today's brakes, there is little need for that as the discs and pads can absorb (or dissipate, however you look at it) all of the necessary energy that the tires can give before they lose traction. In my opinion, especially from amatures like us...all heal-toeing will do is upset the balance of the rear-end both by the varying pressure on the brake pedal as we attempt the technique and the likely event that we don't time it perfectly. "A good downshift should be heard, not felt."

That being said...I still feel the need to master the technique, and eventually use it in my FD once I get all the correct ergonomics to enable me to excecute it with finesse (it certainly can't be done with the stock wheel!)

Ohh, and it does sound pretty cool too

Chronos

Clayne, I assume that you are using the term "double-clutch" correctly? The technique being discussed here is rev-matching using the right foot to modulate both the brake and the accelerator, two different things...I'm not being sarcastic here, just wanted to make sure because many people mis-use that term.

clayne

No, I absolutely was using the term "double-clutch rev-matching" explicitly.

I also use it while braking which is where "heel/toe" comes in.

It's just the way I learned when I picked up rev-matching and braking while rev-matching so I tend to use it implicitly even if some feel it to be unnecessary with synchro-mesh (which I, however, do feel it to still be better for the transmission).

BTW: rev-matching while downshifting is absolutely ESSENTIAL for NOT upsetting the balance of the car, especially when facing the onset of turn-in. More so in my case since I'm running a 6-puck (thank god it's still a sprung disc). If you lighten the rear-end up towards (even without breaking rear traction) corner entry you could be in for a nice surprise. However, in some cases, i.e. FWD or badly understeering cars, you can use this technique to induce better turn-in.

What Shelby was talking about was using compression braking to save brakes. i.e. downshifting early in a straight in combination with the brakes. That's, of course, antiquated.

That being said, one typically does not go through any corner without the familiar feeling of compression on the drivetrain or their foot modulating the throttle through it.

Rev-matching can most definitely be done with the stock steering wheel. I'm 6'1 and have DC RM while braking ever since I picked up my FD (I learned on other cars beforehand). However, I most definitely do not use the heel of my foot to blip the gas - I side-step like all other tall people do.

Ball of foot on brake, right-side of foot on the gas pedal.

clayne

Here's some footwork for you:

http://a178.v096910.c9691.e.vc.akama...e_physik_b.wmv

KevinK2

"double clutch" ... shift method to rev-match gears in the trans during downshift ... saves syncros.

"rev match" ... usually refers to reving eng after dnshift to match flywheel speed to clutch disc speed in a selected gear, to avoid car jerking at clutch release point. Does not help syncros.

"heel toe" ... can be done in either or both of the above to include braking at the same time.

My old VW dasher wagon had perfect pedals for doing all the above. FD not so easy.

Chronos

HOLY ****! That's about the stupidist thing I've ever seen in racing! Not only do people make up the walls, but they actually dart in front of the car! The fact that the guy is sliding around on dirt just makes it even better, obviously none of them ever saw the imfamous footage of the Mercedes going into the stands at Le Mans; the worst accident in motor racing history...if that guy screws up just a bit he would kill atleast twice as many people!

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

Chronos-
That was some footage form the mid/late 80's of Gruppe B rally racing. No restriction racing with no weight minimums/hp restrictions either!

That was an Audi quattro with 1 foot chopped out the middle of the production car with a 5 cylinder turbo pushing crazy 30psi+ boost levels. Ultra lightweight and crazy power. My friend has the production version where only 100 or so were made. He paid nearly $20K back in early 90's.

These turbo rally cars were some of the first to brew up Xylene (117 octane) and Tuolene (114 octane) into their fuels to run crazy boost.

I've seen a 2 hour video compliation of the cars in that class flying 100ft about 10-20 high at 100mph+ over dropoffs. They were insane in the day. Ultimately they stopped the class due to fans getting killed, drivers getting killed, and some of the major auto manufacturers pulling their corporate sponsorship.

Those guys had major KAHONES........

-GNX7