tmiked

>>pomanferrari: Since you are apparently incapable of looking this up for yourself, here it is with links.

From:
http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/
SIERRA Antifreeze/Coolant is a premium quality, propylene glycol (PG) based antifreeze that provides engine protection comparable to that provided by premium conventional ethylene glycol (EG) based antifreezes.

http://www.evanscooling.com/main25.htm
Evans NPG Coolant is pure coolant - no water added. The non-aqueous propylene glycol (NPG). Evans NPG Coolant is 100% inhibited Propylene Glycol

Evans NPG+ waterless coolant, a proprietary blend of glycols (including ethylene glycol)


http://www.prestone.com/framer.cgi?p...roducts/13.htm
The antifreeze/coolant business, as we know it today, began with the marketing of "Prestone" brand ethylene glycol antifreeze in 1927. It was pure ethylene glycol in cans, with published charts showing protection afforded by specific quantities. It would not boilaway or burn, and was comparatively odorless, offering a distinct advantage to some of the substances used previously.
In 1930, Prestone developed and marketed the first inhibitor to further protect the cooling system and retard rust formation.

Trexthe3rd

I hate to say this but you really do need to read more carefully.

Ingredients taken from the Sierra bottle:
Propylene Glygol
Water
Corrosion Inhibitors
Dye

How is that = to 100% inhibited PG?

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Exactly my point.

This type of lazy man conclusions and rebuttals are intellectually dishonest.

You haven't explained how you came to the conclusions that you made.

Like I said, that's like concluding that EG is alcohol therefore denatured alcohol or rubbing alcohol can be used as a coolant.

You want another analogy?


Arabs attacked WTC on 9/11. Iraquis are Arabs. Therefore, by transitive reasoning, Iraquis attacked WTC. On the basis of this intellectually dishonest analysis, we need to go to war.

I've looked at evans for over 3 years now and getting as much info before jumping in. I've decided that the best way to determine if it works is to try it instead of attacking it w/o any basis to support the attacks.

May be I'm a fool for paying $25 per gallon? That is why I wanted your basis for concluding that I could get the same coolant for 1/5 the price. If your analysis made sense, I would have applauded you for yelling that the emperor is naked.

You sir, tmike, I have no respect b/c of your faulty transitive reasoning and spreading misinformation.

KevinK2, however, is a different story. I went to NPG+ based on his disinterested analysis.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I want to also add that you admitted that Evans will not give out MSD.

YET YOU CLAIM TO KNOW THAT IT'S THE SAME MATERIAL AS SIERRA OR SIERRA MIXED WITH EG???

tmiked

Gosh, we are sensitive. Strike a nerve ?


Well its PG + Inhibitors... Isnt that inhibited PG ?

Apparently it contains some water so its not 'non-aqueous and dye to make it look pretty and environmentall friendly. Was it a 50-50 bottle or the 'pure' stuff ? I dont understand the argumemt ?

NPG Is PG +inhibitors, right ?
Sierra is PG +inhibitors (and maybe some H2O), right ?

NPG+ is PG + EG right ?
Prestone is EG right ?

tmiked

I read the freakin website, SEE ABOVE !

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

LMAO!!!
How about this?

Rubbing alcohol is alcohol right?

Alcohol gives me a buzz.

Therefore, I can drink RUBBING alcohol to get a buzz.

(***for you alcoholics out there, don't do it, it could kill you ****).

****GETTING UP OFF THE FLOOR**** WIPING TEARS FROM MY EYES******

Holy sh*t. You are worse than I thought. No point in discussing this with you. Your transitive reasoning is admirable though we'd still be burning witches and draw flat maps if everyone were using this type of shodding reasoning.

The orignal poster wanted some info on real world data, you come in with conclusions based on shoddy analysis.

Not to start a political flame war but I can see why 70% of the public think Iraq was involved in 9-11; that WMD were found (1 vial of bacteria).

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

So to get back to the original question here.. Before you 2 JACK-ASSES started debating who is smarter and can read websites and ingredient labels better!!!!!! Grow up and stick to the topic. This EVANS is expensive ****!!, therefore people want to know if it's worth the CHANGE over to evans. NOT what it is made of and how accurate the ingredient labels are.!! CHRIST!!!!!!!!!! SOOOOOOO HAS anyone had o-rings go out after they switched? IMO it is just hype... but i would like to here input.

crazysuprakid

I'm running evans and my coolant seals are still alive at 72K.

Trexthe3rd

I remember someone mentioning certain rotary engine builders will not warranty the engine without NPG.
Regardless, I run NPG 0 psi without AST and have not had any cooling related problems yet, we'll see how long it'll last.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Haha, I was merely pointing out that tmiked was dragging his knuckles ....

BTW you did say Evans NPG+ is expensive right? And if I were to tell you that you can get the same **** for $7 a gallon instead of $25/gallon wouldn't you be interested?
Now if I fooled you with some half assed reasoning wouldn't you set me right for spreading disinformation?

Now that we're clear on why I did what I did, we can return to regular programming:

I just started Evans with a fresh tune up, I mean reman so I'll let you know in time. The last 2 motors running EG/W lasted 50K each with coolant seals going each time.

In the 2-3 years I've been keeping an eye out on this forum and the big list, I have not seen anyone with coolant seal directly attributed to Evans- although you might want to check with banzai toyota- his coolant seals let go with a motor rebuilt by Pineapple.

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

Thank you for returning to regular programming. I'm not sure what you are meaning about me saying it is expensive? I think it is. And yes I would be upset if I was told the wrong thing. What coolant/water ratio were you running with the other motors that blew seals? I had an N/A go out at 120k= miles with traditional coolant/water. My 94 single turbo engine cracked an apex seal. Upon disassembly, I found the rear o-ring on it's last hair. (only around 25-30 k on the engine).....Crazysuprakid.......Have you been running EVANS since the first time the engine was run?( for baseline comparison purposes) Again Thanks for getting back on topic Poman!!

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

First engine had 30K when I bought the car. Used Preston 50/50 religiously changed every year. Failed at 50K.

Second engine. Noted that coolant never filled all the way up to the filler neck on day one on this engine.

Dexcool 50/50 first 20K then I noticed some funny crud floating in the coolant. Got suspicious and stopped once I found out that Dexcool is some type of acid. Went back to EG 80/20. Failed at 42K. Dragged it out another 6K with blockweld. Both engines on stock radiator.

3rd engine. NPG+ on start up. Filler neck always full. Different operating characteristics than EG/W. Fans must be running to control temperature otherwise it will keep rising to 240. Fluidyne radiator. I have the datalogit so it's not a problem to keep engine temp below 200.

My hunch is that the problem with my first two engines were with the pressure cap. They could never maintain their rated pressure so over time leading to non-observable micro boiling and over time, the boiling coolant killed the motor.

We'll see how long this motor lasts- trouble is I don't put more than 5k a year though.

BigIslandSevens

iTrader: (4)

Interesting!.. I have been wondering about the switch for a while but am just scared to experiment with a new (another) engine. Guess that's why it took you a couple years to switch huh?

MillSpeed

iTrader: (1)

This is great info, thanks everyone, keep it coming! Another major benefit that I can see with evans (from the point of corrosion protection) is the fact that it isn't mixed with anything. That means you have the correct concentration of corrosion inhibitor at all times. Now it was a long time ago, but I remember something from my corrosion course about cathodic inhibitors actually accelerating corrosion when they are not at a specified concentration. I'll check my course notes and report back. There's plenty of scope for getting it wrong when you're diluting your antifreeze with water. Obviously it's vital to have sufficient corrosion protection, especially as these rotary engines are essentially electrochemical cells with their layers of steel and aluminium nicely sandwiched together! Without some form of inhibition that aluminium is gonna take a battering!
Anyways, my motor has 55k original miles under its belt so it couldn't possibly hurt to give evans a try, and who knows, it may even prolong its life......and that's gotta be worth $25/gallon.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

With 50/50 Prestone and tap water, I measured 0.13-0.15 volts with a positive multimeter probe in the coolant at the filler neck and the neg probe at engine ground.

The longer the EG/W was in the engine, the higher the voltage. For example, after 6 mos., the voltage was 0.25 volt.

With Evans NPG+, same technique, I measured 0.08 volt.

Unlike what others have concluded, there is a cathodic reaction going on in the engine with the coolant as the transfer media. It is very low though. I want to see if this voltage is constant or increasing over time in the next 6 mos.

MillSpeed

iTrader: (1)

There will be both anodic and cathodic activity occuring within the engine. The anodic reaction (metal dissolution) will be active on the surface of the aluminium components (more -ve electrode potential)whilst the cathodic reaction (usually reduction of water and oxygen to hydroxide ions) will be taking place on the surface of the iron components (less -ve electrode potential). The electrons from the anodic reaction flow through the engine and are used up in the cathodic reaction. The coolant acts as an electrolyte providing an ionic conduction path and completeing the corrosion 'circuit'. The inhibitors in conventional coolants act to supress the anodic and cathodic activity in an attempt to control corrosion.
Perhaps Evans relies on the fact that since there is no water present in the coolant, the cathodic reaction is supressed thus preventing corrosion? A little off topic I know but any thoughts?

banzaitoyota

Following my engine failure (Still do not know the exact cause; stay tuned) I am waiting for the test results of my Evans NPG+ to come back. I have also sent an oil sample to be analyzed.

I will be pressure testing the the engine to pinpoint the location of the leak prior to teardown.

As a Side note, My Diesel engines have not had any coolant related problems since adding Evans NPG +.

I run a Ford TC35D Tractor, Kubota G1800 Tractor, and a 92 Dodge D250 Cummins Turbo Diesel.

MillSpeed

iTrader: (1)

banzaitoyota, you had a pineapple motor fail yeah? out of interest, how many miles did the motor have on it when it let go? would be very interested to find out what killed it.

banzaitoyota

Between 4 and 5K, still don't know the cause of the failure. Doing more testing and pulling this weekend. XMAS Party scheedule permitting

allenhah

iTrader: (4)

Hmmm...so from what I'm reading on this thread, it looks like nobody has yet had an engine failure attributable to Evans. I've been running Evans for about two years now with a handful of track events (but not aftermarket temp gauge! I know I know...I have faith in the Evans product, I guess.) No problems yet. I was running 0psi for a while until I started to lose coolant, so I changed the cap out to a 13 or 14 psi cap, and no more coolant loss. I think the old cap was simply worn out, but I think I'm staying with the 14 psi cap since I'm not having any problems with it so far.

xchaos

You may want to look at a lower PSI cap like a 7lb or so. That worked fine for me and will put a little less stress on the cooling system.

Then again, sometimes a good idea not to fix what isn't broken.

Jack

iTrader: (2)

Been using Evans for years for dealing with the abuse of Track Events on the coolant system (Instructor with Porsche, BMW) I was at Watkins Glen 7/4/02, ambient temps were 98F coolant temps were 260- 265F all day !! Try that with any configuration of water/coolant .........

turbojeff

iTrader: (30)

So pomanferrari....

You never answered my post. You said Evans had 1/3 lower thermal conductivity while also stating INCORRECTLY that it picked up and shed heat quicker than EG.

It does not pick up heat as quickly nor does it shed it as quickly as a fluid with 1/3 more thermal conductivity. What about that?

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I was formulating the answer when KevinK2 said:

"NPG+ has poorer heat trans props vs eg+w. The fluid does warm up quicker than egw, but with less net heat transfer (btu/hr), giving a false indication of better heat transfer.

As long as the bulk fluid temp in the block is low enough, the egw will work fine. if it can't be kept low during sustained high loads, then DNB will result in overheating, and NPG+ would work better at those high bulk fluid temps."

Couldn't have done it better myself. That's why I said it had "strange" operating characteristics.