pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

One other thing that I have noted was that Mazda originally put on 19 psi caps. With 50/50 mix, I'm guessing that the boiling point has to be around 270-280F?

So Mazda envisioned much higher boiling point and by implication higher operating temps as compared to 2nd Gen. And as the engine routinely operates at 230F, there is a headroom of about 40 deg F with a 19psi cap.

Then they went to 13 psi cap. Boiling point for 13 psi with 50/50 is about 250-255F. So the headroom for a 13 psi cap is about 20 deg.

For a 15 psi cap, the boiling pt for 5050 is about 265F or about 25 deg.

Why?

Less liability to replace engines than to fight a lawsuit based on engine fires.

Instead of running 19-21 psi caps like M2 suggests (and which I did for a year but this resulted in other issues with hoses and clamps), I run Evans in order to allow the engine to have the same or greater margin of safety that Mazda intended.

One other thing that I have noticed with Evans is that the typical crud is not showing up on the AST cap. I had this crud and others on the big list have also seen this after an engine replacement. The crud appears to be a result of blowby into the cooling system due to uneven expansion rate? With Evans, I don't see this stuff so maybe the expansion rate is better controlled?

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah, when I ran 19 psi cap, the gurgling at the filler neck was markedly reduced.

With 13 psi cap, that gurgling sound was there after every shutdown.

With Evans, you never ever hear that annoying and embarrassing sound.

paw140

For the record, propylene glycol is propylene glycol! They are the same thing... your analogy of ethylene glycol being alcohol, and therefore you can get drunk off of it doesn't make sense. Ethanol (the stuff that makes you drunk), methanol, ethylene glycol, isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol), and propylene glycol are all completely different chemicals, although they are all alcohols. Propylene gylcol is 1,2-propanediol - there is only one kind of PG.

With that being said, I think Evans coolant is merely PG (the same stuff as Sierra), with some added proprietary viscosity modifiers so it will flow reasonably enough to cool the engine. This is based off of reading the info on their website.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

This is like beating a dead horse. So what you're concluding is the same as tmiked's conclusion.

I don't claim to know that Evans is different from Sierra.

My point is that this analysis faulty when you ignore all the other components in Evans or Sierra. Let's try another analogy.

Iron + Nicket = Inconel

Iron + Chromium= Stainless Steel

One can't substitute Stainless Steel for a device that requires the properties of Inconnel right?

One can't conclude that they're both iron so any iron (the transitive part of the reasoning) will work right?

Now substitute PG for Iron and additives A for Nickel and additives B for Chromium. You see why I jumped all over this analysis.

Same for the alcohol analogy.

Going back to your PG. PG can't work in an engine cooling system without additives. It turns into some kind of acid. So don't use PG as a linkage to conclude that Evans = Sierra unless you can show facts or evidence for this conclusion.

So for the last time, if you can't show facts (spectro analysis, chemical analysis) to support that evans=sierra, stop continuing in this line of reasoning.

banzaitoyota

Hmm I have a msds of Evans NPG+ somewhere....

paw140

I never said that Evans = Sierra, nor am I implying that one could substitute Sierra for Evans, or vice versa. I'm saying that the bulk of both coolants is exactly the same (PG), but Evans has some sort of unique additive package so that it can be used in a non-aqueous system.

To me, your alcohol analogy made it sound like you believed that there were different kinds of propylene glycol, which is not true.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

That is not what I asserted. I may be a fool but I'm not that stupid.

What I picked apart is the reliance on PG to equate both types of coolants as being the same. They are not the same.

I wish that were true. That would have saved me $80 bucks. Being the cheap bastard that I am, I thought that tmiked had definitive proof of sly marketing until I saw his basis.

Am I beating, stomping, stabbing and emptying a 40 round clip of 5.56 into a dead horse here?

OK you rubber neckers, move on, technical glitch here but we're back to original programming.

Einstein101

Now we know why you have been raving like an idiot !!!

RonKMiller

In Tucson, where the ambient temperature 2 feet above the pavement is 160F in the summer, day after day for 3 to 4 months at a time:
Red Line Water Wetter and distilled water for years with no problems. $7.00 for the Water Wetter and $3.00 for the distilled water. New OEM pressure and AST caps with a $185.00 copper and brass aftermarket two row radiator with METAL end tanks.
All new hoses, new OEM thermostat, new stock AST and cleaned and waxed the fan blades - it makes a huge difference in actual CFM's. (bet yo' mama never told you that one....)

210F is the hottest I get measured at the base of each leading plug idling at a traffic light with the AC on full blast. (Of course the fans are on high speed with the AC on)

Works great for me but don't do this in a freezing climate or you'll end up with a rotary ice cube.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Ron, you're a flintier guy than me. $185 for an FD radiator. How'd you do that? Pics please.

RonKMiller

Flintier? Hah HAh...that's a new one for me but I get your drift (bad, REALLY bad pun)

El cheapo radiator that actually fits well: http://radiatorexpress.com/part_lookup.asp

It's $175.00 but I tossed in $10 for shipping.

It ain't purty (painted black) but for all you guys that don't know: copper/brass is more thermally efficient than aluminum. It's 2 lbs. heavier than the OEM, but then again it has metal end tanks and an extra row.

No Bling. But mo money for other stuff!

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

pomanferrari,

I understand your point.. But I also understand tmike and paw140..

The thing is that Serra and Evans have the same components.. Propylene gylcol, 1,2-propanediol.. as main ingredient.

Unless PG interact with other componets in Evans to form other compound, its pretty much the same as Serra.. No chemical reaction means no new product.. But I'm sure other stuff Evans puts in helps with boiling points and stuff. Hell, if it works, it works.. **** the 25 dollars a gallon.. when it might cost 3 grand to rebuild..

Trexthe3rd

Actually, that's not quite true. Here is an example.
Desolve some salt into water (not much, maybe 1% by volume, that would make the solution 99% water, pretty much the same as water, no?).
Try to boil or freeze the salt solution along side the same amount of water, do you think they would be the same?
Measure the resistance across the liquid, do you think they would be the same?
Stick some ph paper in the solution and water, do you think they would be the same?
Why would most people use distilled water for certain applications when the composition is 99.9% water, instead of good ole faucet water (think of the money you could save)?
Before you say by adding salt into the wtaer you get "another compound", no it doesn't. If you boil the water off, the salt will recrystallize and be left at the bottom of the container. If it did form another compound that would not happen (by definition)

The point is something has been added/taken away, regardless of how miniscule, "pretty much the same IS NOT the same". So there really is no argument. Anyone who has taken high school chem should know this.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I love these kind of reasonings as it explains why otherwise smart people will justify their predisposition towards a desired result.

I work with very very smart people and they make this kind of reasonings when there is an emotional component to it. The best was: we were attacked by Iraq on 9-11 and so we have to respond in kind. The basis for it? The same faulty transitive reasoning. Sad part is we'll all pay for it, in lives and treasures.

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

You are completely correct..
As I was stating.. that I understand both parties comments.. maybe I didn't clearify..

Like I stated.. I'm sure other stuff Evans puts in helps with boiling points and stuff..

Herblenny

iTrader: (13)

Acturally, I was trying to be neutral.. Hell if it works, it works.. At the end, we all have our own reason of why we decide to spend 25 or 3000..

DamonB

Hey Ron, are the metal tanks on that radiator still crimped to the core or are they welded/soldered?

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

Damn! an even simpler analogy than the ones I came up with.

FWIW, supposedly one could run Sierra only. However, one would have to replace it periodically (every 2 or 3 years) as opposed to never having to replace evans.

KevinK2

The main diff is Sierra's corrosion protection stuff works with water, as does conventional EG antifreeze. Also, pure sierra would be too thick at cold temps to work effectively. NPG+ is blended with EG for low temp performance, and uses different additives for corrosion protection.

They are not pretty much the same, although both have high % PG.

I have read of someone using 100% sierra, short term in hot weather, and being able to advance timing for more low end power in a na vw.

RonKMiller

Since it was covered with black spray paint I really could not say if it was welded or soldered - but I would bet on soldered.

Trout2

iTrader: (5)

I ran straight Sierra in my new engine for about 4 to 6 weeks before putting in the Evans. Using an SPA temp gauge mounted in the stock location I saw temps 5-10 F lower with Evans.

I have over 8,000 miles on the motor now and running strong with 7psi AST cap and no coolant loss.

Jack

the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Has anyone noticed a power difference with Evans?

DamonB

There's a great article on Evans NPG and NPG+ in this month's issue of Grassroots Motorsports. Far more info there than I have seen anywhere else.

After reading more about it, I'm considering it.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

I have about 2.5K on the engine. No loss of coolant over 7 mos.; no gurgling sound after shutdown.

The normal running temperature seems to be the same as EG at 210F although at idle, it would rise to 230-250 if I don't set the fans via Datalogit and PFC to keep it within 200-210.

7racer

DamonB...

anyway you can scan the article?