str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking into installing a Halon Fire Extinguisher Kit into my car. I'd really rather be extra safe than sorry. Here's the specs on the particular kit I'm looking into purchasing:

Model LT5 Circle Track Installed System

5 pound size
Halon 1301
Pull cable activated
Complete kit with aluminum discharge line
Meets SCCA,NASA requirements
SFI 17.1 certified

Just wondering how difficult the install typically is? My mechanic and I just finished up installing a single-turbo, wiring up a Microtech, and a few other miscellaneous things so I just want to know what I should expect from this? If anyone has any advice/comments at all I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

Rizwan

Master_Tao

iTrader: (7)

I could be wrong but, I'm pretty sure Halon is illegal.... yep, first result on google
http://www.chubb.co.uk/chserver/requ.../contentId/493

edit: whoops, that's in the uk. sorry.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Riz, this is obviously something you're installing b/c it'll make the difference between life and death. Thus, there are two VERY important factors that must be adequately addressed:

1) Quantity: 5 lbs isn't enough. You'll need a 10 lb tank (or two 5's) at MINIMUM, and that would only be adequate for a two-nozzle system (one in the engine bay, and one on the gas tank). If you want a third nozzle for the interior (probably a good idea, unless you're worried about the car only, and not yourself haha), then 10 lbs MAY work, but you're realistically looking at 12.5 - 15 lbs. Yea, it's no joke.

2) Effectiveness: You do NOT want to attempt to install such things by yourself. And I would NOT allow a "rotary specialist" or "tuner shop" to do so either. You need an EXPERIENCED racecar fabricator or professional racer who knows the optimal location for bottle placement, hose travel, and nozzle placement and angle. These points are just as critical as having the Halon itself. Ie, a poorly installed/placed/angled nozzle can be just as bad as not having any halon. You feel me?

So in short, on this one, don't skimp any money. Don't limit yourself to your area. Ask around who (and where) the best professional race car fabricator is, and have HIM do the install. Luckily for me, I have one local to me (Mitch Piper of Piper Motorsports). I wouldn't go *any* other way.

~Ramy

cletus

Halon just can't be manufactured anymore. Like the old school Freon.

DamonB

If this is not a racecar I see absolutely no reason to install a fire system.

If you're so scared of your roadcar that you need a fire system in it you have bigger problems.

str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

Thanks Ramy, that was actually very helpful information right there. I'm still in the "research" phase of this purchase so I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can before I place an order. I guess I'll look into a bigger Halon system for the car. I think the problem will be finding someone to actually rig it up for me. I don't really know any professional race car drivers/fabricators, but I would think that in Chicago there would be atleast a few. Time to start calling around and see what I can come up with.

Ramy, really quickly, any idea on how much a typical install like this costs? If you have an idea please let me know. I want to have some reference point so I won't have people trying to rip me off.


Cletus: If that's the case then how come several different companies are STILL selling it. The manufacturer I'm looking to go through is "safecraft (www.safecraft.com)." I can't see why they would be selling a product which is no longer in production? Could you further explain where you might have gotten your information from? Thanks.

DamonB: My car IS primarily a street car, I won't lie. It's not that I'm exactly scared of a fire, more like I would rather be EXTRA cautious to avoid one. I have a LOT of money invested into the car and over this winter I plan on switching to "show-car" insurance and it's just that I've read plenty of threads of people having engine bay fires for several reasons......some have been lucky others not at all. I don't want to add my name to this statistic so I don't mind taking the extra precautions necessary to avoid a disaster like this in the future. Hope that explains my reasoning for going with a fire system.

Later,

Rizwan

Scrub

iTrader: (25)

agreed. I keep a 5lb halon (cost $105) extinguisher behind the passenger seat just incase, but I don't see a need for a fire system.

cletus

They still sell R-12 too.

Halon is a great extinguishing agent. It takes a relatively small amount to put out a fire. But it's terrible for the environment, so they are phasing it out. Like R-12 for A/C, I'm pretty sure the only place you can get it from are the recycling facilites. My job is in fire protection (for buildings though) and we deal with halon expansion/retrofits all the time.

http://www.h3r.com/halon/epa_rules.htm


ACTION: Final rule.


SUMMARY: This final rule bans the manufacture of Halon blends; prohibits the intentional release of Halons during training of technicians and during testing, repair, and disposal of Halon-containing equipment; requires appropriate training of technicians regarding emissions reduction; and requires proper disposal of Halon and of containing equipment. Release of Halons to the environment contributes significantly to the depletion of the stratospheric ozone layer which, in turn, can lead to increased incidences of skin cancer and other ill effects. EPA proposed these requirements in response to a lawsuit filed by the Sierra Club. EPA understands that the manufacturers which have in recent years been engaged in the manufacture of Halon blends will be minimally impacted by the ban, or may meet criteria for exemption from this ban. Furthermore, EPA understands that entities using Halons, driven in part by the economic value of Halons, currently widely practice the kinds of precautions codified in this rule. This rule will more fully extend these practices throughout the industry and will ensure their continued implementation in the event of changes in Halon market conditions. Thus, this rule will assure continued significant environmental benefits, while placing only minimal burdens on industry.

EFFECTIVE DATE: April 6, 1998.

Or straight from the EPA website:
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/qa.html#qA1

You can still USE it, you just can't make it.

str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

Cool. Thanks. I think I'm still going to go with a Halon extinguisher, just not sure whether I'll purchase the kit or a standalone fire-extinguisher.

TurboTagTeam

Your nuts to put a halon system in your street car. That kind of system is meant for purpose built track cars. Get a fire bottle to keep in the rear bins. That's all you need for a street car.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Riz, don't listen to ppl who say "put it in your bins." That's RETARDED. If (God Forbid) you're in an accident, and you can't move around much, trying to get into your bins is gonna be near impossible. If you do end up just getting an extinguisher, there are only two PROPER places for it... 1) On the roll cage/bar within an arm span's reach, w/ a quick release button, and 2) in front of the passenger side seat, at the very bottom, behind where the passenger's feet would be (also w/ a quick release). These are both a) quickly accessible, and b) securely fastened. Ppl who put them on A pillars or the center divider etc...you're asking for a moving missile in case of an accident...

~Ramy

DamonB

I speak as someone who has a small handheld extinguisher in the bottom of the passenger bin, who did have his car catch fire and who was able to put it out immediately. I think you're retarded for claiming it's a poor idea.

I ordered my passenger out, popped the hood and released the extinguisher from the bottom of the bin and jumped out of the car in seconds. I spent more time standing in front of the hood trying to decide if I was going to open it or not (is flame going to roll out of there and engulf me when I lift the hood?) than I did getting myself and the extinguisher out of the car.

If the car is on fire the first thing to do is save yourself by getting out. After that you can decide if you wish to try and save the car too.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

And trying to get to any other place is going to be easier in that situation?

str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

I think for the time being I'll go with option 2. Until I get a roll cage I guess this will be my best option.

The MAIN reason I want to go with a "kit" rather than an extinguisher alone is b/c I've heard/read from multiple people that in the instance of an engine bay fire, popping the hood can become VERY difficult (in terms of heat) along with increasing the danger factor significantly. If the chances of flames intensifying greatly increase after popping the hood, how does it make ANY sense to get a standalone fire-extinguisher to attempt to put them out?

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

1) Don't get hostile, and 2) I presumed you're intelligent enough to understand your situation wasn't as bad as it can - and often - gets. Lets say, for example, your passenger was hurt or was knocked unconscious. Or the impact was on the passenger side, and now it's very difficult to get him out of the car. Hmm...good luck getting that bin lid to open

Damon, in short, you can't classify things based on YOUR expeirence, b/c it isn't representative. Crashes don't *always* happen in a specific way or manner. So the best way is to take as many worst-case-scenarios into consideration and plan accordingly. I maintain that keeping it in the bin is NOT smart - especially if you're tall like myself and my best friend (who 99% of the time is the passenger), and the seat is all the way to the back, in such a way that the seat back inhibits the lid from opening in that position.

Absolutely. Well within an armspan's reach without anything there to possibly block it...it IS unimpeded access.

~Ramy

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Now Ramy, if you can't get the passenger rear bin, you ain't making to the passenger floorboard either. As far as a rollbar, anything within arms reach is also going to be a viewing obstruction and likely not used.

The reason some tracks (like MAM) require extinguishers on rollbars is not for the driver's convenience, its for the track crew to be able to find it *if* they need it.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Possible. But again, I'm talking about the PROPER place being on the roll bar/cage.

Not necessarily. It all depends on how the roll bar/cage is set up. I've looked into it quite a bit (Mitch Piper's shop is right next to me, and I've seen ALL sorts of setups).

Mahjik, you're right, but it's also got to be in an accessible area too, dontcha think?

DamonB

Actually I can and it is And I'll be right and you'll be wrong because I have experience with this exact scenario and you do not. Your statements are based on opinion and conjecture while mine are based on pure and simple fact The bottom of the passenger bin is already within arms reach and it's certainly no further than the passenger side floor board you insist on. And yes I'm tall and so was my passenger and both seats were all the way back blah, blah, blah. No problem getting the bin open. You need to go create some more excuses to attempt to support your opinion.

My experience was representative of most every FD that has caught fire. FD's don't catch on fire from crashes which disable the occupants and make exit difficult, they catch on fire from the original fuel system components failing and leaking fuel onto a hot engine. The occupants will have plenty of time to figure out what's going on and save themselves. Having an extinguisher handy just makes it possible to save the car as well (assuming the owner decides it is safe to do so). This is a huge point I feel most people miss. Just because you have an extinguisher doesn't mean you need to be in there using it. If you're safely out and are not convinced you should try to fight the fire let the damn car burn to the ground. The extinguisher is there to protect YOU, the car is secondary.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

Damon, I have an FD, and I have a passenger side seat as well. I'm telling you that in MY FD, the seat back DOES interfere w/ the bin lid opening. Moreover, for ME, it's quite cumbersome to reach over, raise the lid, and reach into the bin for something. Typically, I enter the interior facing the rear, and pull the seat and the seatback forward to access the bins. And that's MY experience.

Also, I'm not so concerned with engine fires due to fuel system failures from improper installs, lack of maintenance, and the like. My primary concern (in line w/ your statement earlier in this thread) is surviving and not burning alive in the event of a crash.

As for you, I'd suggest learning to be non-confrontational when someone disagrees with you. For the most part you are correct in what you post, but you often have difficulty accepting other perspectives. And just because you don't agree w/ them does NOT make them WRONG FYI, you're a driver. How many FDs or racecars have you had experience w/? I sought the advice of one of the most competent racecar fabricators with an extensive racecar history under his belt.

~Ramy

DamonB

So what's the problem? You should know by now I don't argue unless I already know I'm right

I have no problem accepting others' perspective, I have a library full of others' perspective which I have studied and accepted. This gives me the ability to instantly recognize when others don't truly understand what they're attempting to wax poetic on.

And I'm sure Mitch's statements were framed in reference to racecars and that you're mistakenly trying to apply them to a street car. There's no real reason to install a 10 pound Halon system in a street car. Walk back over there and ask Mitch if a street car needs 10 pounds of Halon inside of it.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

A little perspective. I found it difficult but doable to get to the passenger bin with stock seats. Now that i've got a sparco, it's virtually impossible without getting out of the seat and turning around. Add the new rollbar main diagonal, and it definately aint happening quickly. That said, that's currently where my fire extinguisher rides... but i'll have to disagree w/ DamonB to some extent.

I've not actually tried to see how tough it would be if the extinguisher were mounted ahead of the front seat, but i've GOT t think it would be much easier in current config. The best would be sitting upright ahead of the pax seat next to the ebrake, where i typically wedge a drink while i'm driving. That I know I could reach.

To the original poster, if you're really worried, just mount an extinguisher in the latter location I mentioned. The reality is, you're not going to likely have a fire in the interior Dale Earnheart Jr. style. You'll have an underhood fire that a fixed cockpit system won't help much with. You need to be able to grab it and spray in the engine bay more than likely. So THAT part, I will agree with DamonB. A halon system like that likely won't do much good. You'll still need a handheld bottle.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

LOL. Nice

Speaking of trying to be poetic... :P: Seriously Damon...easy now. I'm not lookin to battle lol.

I'll repeat again; I contexted (or at least I thought I did) my response to MY situation, and yes, I'm building my car as an all out roadracer that is streetABLE, but in no way a street car. So again, I agree w/ you, but I don't think you were listening to what I was saying. Guess it was too poetic?

~Ramy