i run 255 X18s up front. i have run manual steering since 1999. it is never a "pain." it does deliver road feel unlike PS. we recently drove Aaron's LS2 FD 2350 miles in 2 days+ and i was never aware of the steering.... other than it needed a bit of alignment

BTW, i ditched the PS primarily to gain road feel, the weight and unclutter of the eng compartment were a bonus.

just a helpful additional comment: do not remove the belt from the PS pump and go for a test drive. it will be like driving a dump truck. you need to remove the hydraulics.

hc

 

i just ran my car for almost a week with no power steering... anything over about 15 miles an hour is easy. under 15 it starts to get a little tough. It feels weird with power steering back on it... makes me wanna switch back to manual

 

"i just ran my car for almost a week with no power steering"

did you remove the pump and all lines and drain the rack? if not, you would not actually be able to evaluate manual steering.

hc

 

Howard not sure what your agenda here is with racing brake vs stoptech. It is hardly fair to compare stoptech rotors designed for stock calipers vs RB rotors designed for aftermarket calipers. RB in my experience is extremely slow and tend to not answer questions in their own tech forums however with stoptech they are always a phonecall away and eager to answer anything.

If you are running on the edge of pumpgas with AI this again would hardly be a fair comparison as the ls2 is barely breaking a sweat on pumpgas with the parts that are on it. It should, at the very least have a head/cam combo with milled heads for higher compression bringing it closer to the limit on pumpgas for this to be fair.

These two points lead me to question the results.

 

I think you might be missing the point of this comparison. I believe Howard is more interested in how much power the 13B needs to compete with a mildy modified LSx FD. Correct me if I am wrong.

This should be a fun test.

 

Both cars will have the Racing Brake setup, its not a braking comparison. Howard is setting these cars up to be DUAL PURPOSE. I doubt his final tune for the event is going to bring him past the boiling point in regards to pump gas, but the cars are already pretty close in power output. Any more to the LS2 would destroy the little balance there is between the two cars.

You don't have to like it, but until you can build two FDs and perform you're own test, just sit back and see what happens.

 

given this thread has grown to over 100 posts it is perhaps understandable to be off re what the plan here is...

there could be a number of plans... for instance to dial up the hp to the max in both cars.

maybe another day.

the plan is to present two exactly similar suspensioned FDs.

one w a mildly modded LS2.

the question to be answered is what does it take to run w the LS2 and where does each car have an advantage.

as to brakes, each car will run exactly similar 4 wheel RB systems and pads.

thanks to afterburn and dial8 for their spot on responses.

we are making excellent progress prepping the LS2 car.

hc

 

Hey howard, not sure if you already answered this (as you said, many posts ) but is there a possibility of maybe going around to a few different tracks to get some more data on where each car shines and where each has a weakness? It's a little far away but I'd love to see how these cars stack up against eachother at road america!

 

job one is to get job one done:

fixture both cars, instrument both cars.
get them ontrack at Blackhawk and see what they have V each other.

Road America is a different beast. while, just a guess, we might run 120 at Blackhawk, Road America will be 160-165 and there are a number of places to get in deep XXXX.

no roll cage, no fuel cell. i have raced long enough to greatly respect the lack of these two items. while maybe a fuel cell could be in my future a roll cage is most assuredly not.

as a result of these 2 items not being onboard i am not sure i could get in the 10 10ths mode. these are dual purpose cars and running flat out at RA, with the performance capability of being well setup, may not be my preference.

OTOH, the Texas Mile greatly interests me w the two cars. or the Silver State Classic. i think there's a top speed deal in the east too. i would have zero problems doing these events w no cage/cell.

after job one is done we will look ahead.

hc

 

Very good points, sounds like there is at least a chance for some other comparisons which is what interested me most.

I'm glad you guys are doing this, it will definitely be an interesting outcome no matter what.

 

Any updates Howard? What's been happening with the two cars?

 

'just returned from northern wisconsin and our lake home up in the woods. aaron drove the ls2 over from Minn and i brought the recently built 3.90 rear end w me from wis. we, mainly Aaron, swapped the 3.55 out and the 3.90 in. as you might expect, the LS2 pulls real well w the 3.90.

the RacingBrake 4 wheel brake system is in. we dealt w a bunch of detail stuff... confirming the angle of the motor to the rear end, chasing a couple of noises etc.

then we did some road testing. there are some back roads that are close to "roadcourse" and have some good straights. of course you want to slalom between the deer.

so things are looking good. various parts are on their way, perhaps including a cam/springs/lifters and pushrods. and another trip to the Beyond Redline dyno would be on the schedule if Aaron does the cam.

i will be dynoing my 2 rotor this week.

Aaron and i are both excited about getting both cars on track.

hc

 

Howard, is there any noticeable bump steer on the LS2 car? Just curious.

 

Howard,

I've done a variation of the Silver State Classic, called, the Gold Rush Challenge, and it is run and governed by the same rules as the Silver State Classic.

Unfortunately, if you want to enter an average speed of 160 or 170 MPH (Super Sport, max. tech. speed of 180 MPH), you're going to need a competition approved full-cage, drive-hoop, 10-lbs. of fire supression with DUAL interior nozzles, head support, window netting, and arm restraints.

Above an average of 180MPH (Unlimited), everything for Super Sport, plus a fuel-cell, a competition approved 10-lbs. fire suppression system, ful-face helmet, etc.

Average speed of 125 MPH and below (Grand Touring; max. tech. speed of 140 MPH) DO NOT require a rollbar (this is the class I entered in my C36-powered Mercedes wagon).

Average speeds of 130 MPH and upto 150 MPH (Grand Sport Division with a max. tech. speed of 160 MPH), will require a roll-bar.

:-) neil

http://www.sscc.us/docs/SSCC%20-%202...ule%20Book.pdf

 

Howard any updates?

 

Aaron took a 50+mph dive off his bike (big pothole) about 3 weeks ago. fortunately he will be back 100% but it has taken a month out of our plans. i think the car will be down for a weekend of wrenching v soon. top of the list will be bumpsteer. i want to know exactly what it has. i have new lower front underbody panels and wheel-wells to install. i will also panel the radiator.

i was planning to be on the dyno w my car last wednesday but my alcohol pump looks like it will need to be replaced. as soon as that happens and after i dyno i will be at Blackhawk shaking things down and then we will get both cars together.

sometimes reality intercedes but we remain committed and very interested in how the cars compare.

hc

 

Good to hear he is OK! Any spill on a bike can be serious.

 

let's get the show on the road!

 

Hey Howard any updates brother?

 

as originally envisioned, the Gunfight isn't going to happen.

Aaron's accident has led him to change course a bit, he is moving to Florida, enrolling in a computer game design school and will be selling his FD for something more appropriate. i haven't posted this until now because there was a chance that things might revert back but realistically it probably isn't going to happen.

this disappoints you? i can assure you it is more of a bummer to me.

since i have been in contact w Blackhawk i have been thinking about an all RX7 day at the track. what if we found a way to rent the track for a day for just RX7s.

i am thinking maybe MSD gets envolved w their Traqmate GPS/laptimer product and we have a series of open sessions and then have a sequenced timed lap (time attack) format.

each car could use the MSD GPS and we could end up w alot of data from all kinds of RX7s... rotaries, V8s.

maybe two classes... rx7s w cages and race rubber & no cage DOT.

while it is mid August there really is alot of nice coolish weather on the way and perhaps the event could be set up for later this year.

Blackhawk is a nice fairly flat 1.9 mile track located on the Wis/Ill border just off I-90 about an hour NW of Chicago.

who could make it to BHF for such an event? if there is enough initial interest i will check w the track on pricing and dates.

hc

 

definitely a bummer as this was going to be the closest thing to a scientific experiement between the rotary and LSx camps.

I'd be game for a day at Blackhawk, but unfortunately I won't be able to make it until next year unless you want to come a little closer to me (Mid-Ohio anyone?...just kidding, they're expensive as hell).

 

Just wanted to bump this up and see what's happening. Any chance the new owner (assuming it sold already) might be willing to give the experiment a try? It sounded like you guys were almost ready to go.

 

Very disappointing... i just read through most of this hoping to see the outcome of the battle. i just bailedon my 13btt rebuild and am picking up an LSx in the next couple of weeks for my fd also.. and was curious what power the 13b would have to put out to keep up

 

I just read this whole thread.

Talk about a let down.

 

and thanks for wasting other people's time with the same result by bumping it.