FYI: intercooler comparisons are done SMIC VS. FMIC
12-30-02, 07:15 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
FYI: intercooler comparisons are done SMIC VS. FMIC
well, after a long comparison on 2 very popular aftermarket intercoolers, i have some information that some of you might find interesting...hopefully, some of you who seem to still be undecided between the 2 will gain some knowledge from my research and figure the rest out....
the 2 units that are used and in question are:
PETTIT cool charge II SMIC
GREDDY 2 row fmic (for twins)
the unit for measurement is an autometer CF intake temp guage with thermocouple that is plumbed into the greddy intake elbow about 6" from the throttle body itself..
first off, i would like to say, that for the price of a pettit smic, 1349.00, you could have the greddy fmic that i have for ~$500.00 less. i paid 850.00 for the greddy, and it came with everything i needed....
1.Installs: well, this is a no brainer. the pettit unit, as would almost any SMIC, installed in about an hour. the greddy fmic was a little more involved, but not too dificult nonetheless. the fitment on the units was superb for both, i did have to trim out the bumper for the fmic, bit it looks very sharp nonetheless. the ac was retained, but later removed because i do not use it any way..
2. performance:
pettit SMIC: one thing that i noticed about the pettit unit, and charachteristic to MANY SMIC units, was that i t was very prone to heatsoak during city driving conditions, especially in the dead of summer. the thing was a blast in the winter, and the heatsoak was minimal. the pettit unit however, with the duct installed as it should be, was VERY efficient under interstate driving, and quickly regained the desired lower intake air, temps as the air was able to circulate better and more rapidly.
as far as the pettit IC intake temps are concerned, i would give the pettit unit a C+ for city driving and a B+ for spirited interstate driving. the temps in the summer time would be in the mid 90's, and the intake temps could/did reach as high as 170 degrees. however, for interstate driving, the temps dropped rapidly and would hover around 105-110 degrees. in the winter time, the temps would average ~40 degrees during the day, and the intake temps would be ~75-80 degrees
greddy FMIC: well, when i first opened the greddy IC, i was shocked. the core of this unit was a gargantuan in comparison to the pettit core. it was at least 3 times the coverage area, and was 50% deeper as well. the install of the fmic called for me to relocate the radiator and the ac condenser, and a new power steering oil cooling line was routed as well (all necessary hardware was included)....i first noticed that my water temps were up almost from day one. that was to be expected because of hte fact that the ac condenser was now sitting almost directly against the radiator (stock), and they have now been relocated to a horizontal position directly in front of the pulleys...the intercooler looks very mean, and packed the skills to back up the look. aside from the higher water temp issue that i was very pleased at the performance of this unit. from the first push of the throttle i knew that it was love. there was little to no heat soak whatsoever, and the intake air temps on the guage hover around ~10 degrees higher than the normal/ambient air temp outside. i give this unit an B+ for city driving, and an A+ for interstate and spirited driving.
my summary: both of these units are VERY capable, and a great improvement over the stock unit. both look good in their own respects, and are *fairly* simple to install. I like the ease of installation of the pettit SMIC unit, and the fact that never once did i have to worry about my radiator getting enough air circulation. i love the look and the quick cooling capacity of the FMIC as compared to the SMIC, and its size for the cooling in general. overall, i think that either choice of a FMIC or a SMIC upgrade would be one of the best decisions that you could make while maintaining and modifying your rx7. i know that many of you will not finish this write up that i have done, and that is ok. i wrote this on the premise that there are soo many threads that are based on which is better and this and that.....i have a great deal of experience with both of these types of intercoolers, as well as the stock one....feel free to criticize or question anything that i have written. i apologize if it is repetitive, i started writing this 3 days ago at work, and have only found a few minutes here and there to complete it...
louis
the 2 units that are used and in question are:
PETTIT cool charge II SMIC
GREDDY 2 row fmic (for twins)
the unit for measurement is an autometer CF intake temp guage with thermocouple that is plumbed into the greddy intake elbow about 6" from the throttle body itself..
first off, i would like to say, that for the price of a pettit smic, 1349.00, you could have the greddy fmic that i have for ~$500.00 less. i paid 850.00 for the greddy, and it came with everything i needed....
1.Installs: well, this is a no brainer. the pettit unit, as would almost any SMIC, installed in about an hour. the greddy fmic was a little more involved, but not too dificult nonetheless. the fitment on the units was superb for both, i did have to trim out the bumper for the fmic, bit it looks very sharp nonetheless. the ac was retained, but later removed because i do not use it any way..
2. performance:
pettit SMIC: one thing that i noticed about the pettit unit, and charachteristic to MANY SMIC units, was that i t was very prone to heatsoak during city driving conditions, especially in the dead of summer. the thing was a blast in the winter, and the heatsoak was minimal. the pettit unit however, with the duct installed as it should be, was VERY efficient under interstate driving, and quickly regained the desired lower intake air, temps as the air was able to circulate better and more rapidly.
as far as the pettit IC intake temps are concerned, i would give the pettit unit a C+ for city driving and a B+ for spirited interstate driving. the temps in the summer time would be in the mid 90's, and the intake temps could/did reach as high as 170 degrees. however, for interstate driving, the temps dropped rapidly and would hover around 105-110 degrees. in the winter time, the temps would average ~40 degrees during the day, and the intake temps would be ~75-80 degrees
greddy FMIC: well, when i first opened the greddy IC, i was shocked. the core of this unit was a gargantuan in comparison to the pettit core. it was at least 3 times the coverage area, and was 50% deeper as well. the install of the fmic called for me to relocate the radiator and the ac condenser, and a new power steering oil cooling line was routed as well (all necessary hardware was included)....i first noticed that my water temps were up almost from day one. that was to be expected because of hte fact that the ac condenser was now sitting almost directly against the radiator (stock), and they have now been relocated to a horizontal position directly in front of the pulleys...the intercooler looks very mean, and packed the skills to back up the look. aside from the higher water temp issue that i was very pleased at the performance of this unit. from the first push of the throttle i knew that it was love. there was little to no heat soak whatsoever, and the intake air temps on the guage hover around ~10 degrees higher than the normal/ambient air temp outside. i give this unit an B+ for city driving, and an A+ for interstate and spirited driving.
my summary: both of these units are VERY capable, and a great improvement over the stock unit. both look good in their own respects, and are *fairly* simple to install. I like the ease of installation of the pettit SMIC unit, and the fact that never once did i have to worry about my radiator getting enough air circulation. i love the look and the quick cooling capacity of the FMIC as compared to the SMIC, and its size for the cooling in general. overall, i think that either choice of a FMIC or a SMIC upgrade would be one of the best decisions that you could make while maintaining and modifying your rx7. i know that many of you will not finish this write up that i have done, and that is ok. i wrote this on the premise that there are soo many threads that are based on which is better and this and that.....i have a great deal of experience with both of these types of intercoolers, as well as the stock one....feel free to criticize or question anything that i have written. i apologize if it is repetitive, i started writing this 3 days ago at work, and have only found a few minutes here and there to complete it...
louis
12-30-02, 07:46 PM
#4
I think its very commendable that you took the time to do this comparison, and share the results with us. THANKS!
A couple thoughts:
In reality, it would have been a more fair comparison if you'd used a large SMIC like the M2 large or CWR, as their cores are much closer in size to the Greddy.
You breeze over the fact that your water temps were instantly higher w/ the Greddy... this is no small consideration. That sort of heat is deadly to our cars, as you well know.
I don't think anyone debates that a FMIC outperforms a similar stock mount particularly with heat soak. The reason alot of folks choose the SMIC, is because they feel that they can't afford to compromise water temps... even for cooler charge temps. I personally feel that water temps trump air intake temps.
Not putting down your research, just adding a point or two, nice work!
A couple thoughts:
In reality, it would have been a more fair comparison if you'd used a large SMIC like the M2 large or CWR, as their cores are much closer in size to the Greddy.
You breeze over the fact that your water temps were instantly higher w/ the Greddy... this is no small consideration. That sort of heat is deadly to our cars, as you well know.
I don't think anyone debates that a FMIC outperforms a similar stock mount particularly with heat soak. The reason alot of folks choose the SMIC, is because they feel that they can't afford to compromise water temps... even for cooler charge temps. I personally feel that water temps trump air intake temps.
Not putting down your research, just adding a point or two, nice work!
12-30-02, 07:49 PM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
well, there really is not too much room for a fan with the pettit unit.
justin, i was more than happy with the pettit unit that you got from me, and frankly, if i had known then, what i know now, i prolly would NOT have sold that unit to you or anyone else for that matter. there are far fewer headaches involved with a smic than a fmic, and, if i weren't an avid and ambitious mechanic, i would not even own an fd for that matter. but, looking back, i still like the fmic. it looks great, power is very consistent and strong, and i cleared up a ton of room under the hood.
louis
justin, i was more than happy with the pettit unit that you got from me, and frankly, if i had known then, what i know now, i prolly would NOT have sold that unit to you or anyone else for that matter. there are far fewer headaches involved with a smic than a fmic, and, if i weren't an avid and ambitious mechanic, i would not even own an fd for that matter. but, looking back, i still like the fmic. it looks great, power is very consistent and strong, and i cleared up a ton of room under the hood.
louis
12-30-02, 07:51 PM
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
well, living here in mississippi, i surely can not afford the higher than normal water temps. however, i think that with a vented hood and fluidyne, i will never agonize over the running hot issue again....
lou
lou
12-30-02, 08:52 PM
#7
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Lou,
Did you have your Fluidyne radiator installed during the comparison? What were your water temps?
I plan to go with a 2-row Greddy FMIC myself, with a Koyo radiator.
What kind of battery did you get to fit with the 2-row FMIC piping?
Nice work on the IC comparison.
Verfies what I thought of FMICs--the best way to go for maximum intake charge air cooling
Did you have your Fluidyne radiator installed during the comparison? What were your water temps?
I plan to go with a 2-row Greddy FMIC myself, with a Koyo radiator.
What kind of battery did you get to fit with the 2-row FMIC piping?
Nice work on the IC comparison.
Verfies what I thought of FMICs--the best way to go for maximum intake charge air cooling
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12-30-02, 09:03 PM
#8
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Originally posted by ptrhahn
I think its very commendable that you took the time to do this comparison, and share the results with us. THANKS!
A couple thoughts:
In reality, it would have been a more fair comparison if you'd used a large SMIC like the M2 large or CWR, as their cores are much closer in size to the Greddy.
You breeze over the fact that your water temps were instantly higher w/ the Greddy... this is no small consideration. That sort of heat is deadly to our cars, as you well know.
I don't think anyone debates that a FMIC outperforms a similar stock mount particularly with heat soak. The reason alot of folks choose the SMIC, is because they feel that they can't afford to compromise water temps... even for cooler charge temps. I personally feel that water temps trump air intake temps.
Not putting down your research, just adding a point or two, nice work!
I think its very commendable that you took the time to do this comparison, and share the results with us. THANKS!
A couple thoughts:
In reality, it would have been a more fair comparison if you'd used a large SMIC like the M2 large or CWR, as their cores are much closer in size to the Greddy.
You breeze over the fact that your water temps were instantly higher w/ the Greddy... this is no small consideration. That sort of heat is deadly to our cars, as you well know.
I don't think anyone debates that a FMIC outperforms a similar stock mount particularly with heat soak. The reason alot of folks choose the SMIC, is because they feel that they can't afford to compromise water temps... even for cooler charge temps. I personally feel that water temps trump air intake temps.
Not putting down your research, just adding a point or two, nice work!
Water temps can cost you an engine if they rise to much. Where as the inatke charge is not nearly as crucial.
I think that fact also that the IC that you tested was not a similairly sized model. Also taking into consideration the work put into mounting your average FMIC.
I do not understand why the front mounts are so popular.
Good post though and I am glad that I clicked on it.
12-30-02, 09:06 PM
#9
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Nice work! Very nice comparison with numbers. Obviously there are pros and cons to both. Look wise I don't think you can beat a fmic. But the Pettit II is a small unit - a Pettit III might have been a better comparison - but either way, I'm glad you put some time and compared 2 popular ICs to help some who seem so bent on one or the other.
12-30-02, 09:35 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
i had experience with the m2 medium as well, in my other fd, which is similar to the pettit III unit that you speak of.
i have had no temp problems since i removed the ac condenser soil from in front of the radiator. i saw the temps get up to 199, and i never let them get there again.....sorry, but the $$$ that i have tied up in my car are far too valuable, not to mention the standing value/love i have for my car itself, to play with hig temps of any cause.....
louis
i have had no temp problems since i removed the ac condenser soil from in front of the radiator. i saw the temps get up to 199, and i never let them get there again.....sorry, but the $$$ that i have tied up in my car are far too valuable, not to mention the standing value/love i have for my car itself, to play with hig temps of any cause.....
louis
12-30-02, 10:20 PM
#11
I'd be interested in actual coolant temp comparison. Of course it isn't valid now that the AC is pulled unless you do the whole comparison over.
Did you have to "hack" off the brace on the car behind the bumper support for the FMIC? Did you retain the Power Steering cooling loop?
Thanks,
Jeff
Did you have to "hack" off the brace on the car behind the bumper support for the FMIC? Did you retain the Power Steering cooling loop?
Thanks,
Jeff
12-31-02, 12:13 AM
#12
Lives on the Forum
The temps shouldn't get get that hot with the FMIC, unless you're running a stock radiator??
Big Koyo or Fluidyne with fans that kick on at 180 F should be fine..
I'll find out myself, when mine gets intstalled.
Big Koyo or Fluidyne with fans that kick on at 180 F should be fine..
I'll find out myself, when mine gets intstalled.
12-31-02, 12:30 AM
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Thanks for the great comparison and data.
I have the Greddy 2-row FMIC and i'm happily surprised to hear that your data shows the intake temps were roughly 10F higher than ambient. That is a pretty high level of efficiency IMHO.
I'm curious as to what boost levels these tests were done at and what type of intake?
When it comes to FMICs and water temps. My thing is this. If you had water temp/coolant issues stock, it will only exagerate itself with the FMIC. If you don't have any problems now...you won't have it after the FMIC.
Danny
I have the Greddy 2-row FMIC and i'm happily surprised to hear that your data shows the intake temps were roughly 10F higher than ambient. That is a pretty high level of efficiency IMHO.
I'm curious as to what boost levels these tests were done at and what type of intake?
When it comes to FMICs and water temps. My thing is this. If you had water temp/coolant issues stock, it will only exagerate itself with the FMIC. If you don't have any problems now...you won't have it after the FMIC.
Danny
12-31-02, 04:41 AM
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Hi
Basically there are two types of intercoler cores from Greddy
2 row H276 L600 W76
3 row H258 L600 W115
And there are several types of piping kits which depends on your turbine.
As for performance,
If your turbine is stock or rather small turbine wit normal port,
2 row is better.
If your turbine is big, for example T51, T45, T88 with modified port,
3 row is better.
Price depends on your mods.
Basically there are two types of intercoler cores from Greddy
2 row H276 L600 W76
3 row H258 L600 W115
And there are several types of piping kits which depends on your turbine.
As for performance,
If your turbine is stock or rather small turbine wit normal port,
2 row is better.
If your turbine is big, for example T51, T45, T88 with modified port,
3 row is better.
Price depends on your mods.
12-31-02, 09:59 AM
#16
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Yup, pretty apt description inukai!
The 3-row has too much pressure drop for the stock or Japan spec twin turbos due to the large IC core's volume.
2-row Greddy FMIC for Twin Sequential Turbos!
The 3-row has too much pressure drop for the stock or Japan spec twin turbos due to the large IC core's volume.
2-row Greddy FMIC for Twin Sequential Turbos!
12-31-02, 04:45 PM
#21
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For comparison's sake, I just cruised around town in 56 degree weather in both stop & go and constant speed ~50 mph.
During light traffic between stop lights my greddy SMIC air temperature reached as high as 48 degrees celsius briefly with most stop & go traffic between 39-44c (102-111F). During my constant speed driving the air tempurature was between 30-34c (86-91f). For the most part the water temperature stayed around 79c/174f.
Don't know if this helpful or not. I'd be interested in any comments.
During light traffic between stop lights my greddy SMIC air temperature reached as high as 48 degrees celsius briefly with most stop & go traffic between 39-44c (102-111F). During my constant speed driving the air tempurature was between 30-34c (86-91f). For the most part the water temperature stayed around 79c/174f.
Don't know if this helpful or not. I'd be interested in any comments.
01-01-03, 03:27 AM
#22
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Hi
Horizontal mount is much much better.
Intercooler is near the throttle, then response is better.
Of course cooling advantage is better.
As for RE-A horizontal kits,
down force effectiveness and air flow design is considered.
But very expensive.
Horizontal mount is much much better.
Intercooler is near the throttle, then response is better.
Of course cooling advantage is better.
As for RE-A horizontal kits,
down force effectiveness and air flow design is considered.
But very expensive.
01-01-03, 01:37 PM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
very expensive is right. i really wanted to do a horizontal or a v-mount, but none were cost efficient for me. i even thought about fabricating one myself, but it will be one of those rainy day projects. i just happen to have a company that we met at sema that can get a really cool core for very cheap.......i will begin working on it in the spring.....
