BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious if there is a way to do this? My FD seems to want to swap rear ends pretty quickly. Much more so than any other rwd car I've driven. its not the power as I've had a car this fast before. What kind of stuff can I buy?

artowar

iTrader: (1)

Under what conditions are you experiencing this issue? Also, have you verified that your car's tires, suspension, etc., are working properly?

kashracing

yea also make sure that one of your rear tires is bolted on in the right direction because i remember on my old car when i got new tires the idiots didnt put the tire on in the right direction and the rear always was swinging out on me

BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

Under spining the rear tires upon cornering. Alot will refer to this as drifting. I'm not into that trend, but I do tend to have some fun and use the gas pedal to rotate the car at autox on occassions. I was playing in a parking lot and once the FD starts going sideways, anymore than 10 degrees and its kinda hard to catch. The shocks arent blown. All stock suspension w/ 71k on it. No clunking from the rear heim bushings (yet, I know this is about the time that starts and they need replaced, but they all honestly felt good to my hand when it was all apart)

I've driven a good amount of high HP rwd cars and not had this problem, so I am pretty sure it isnt my driving inexperience. Though I suppose it could be technique. In all honesty it reminds me of driving my friends 400hp suspension clad fiero. Once it starts getting sideways you arent stopping it. I'd like to make the FD more forgiving to mistakes if I can.

DaiOni

first instinct is that something is wrong with the car - as it's not a natural trait for the FD. 'Drifters' have to do a bit of work to induce tail-happy suspension - as, in factory guise, they tend to be a bit soft in the rear (and grippy).

DaiOni

I see you're a miata owner. Not sure if it helps, but as a reference point, I found my 90 roadster (miata) to be _far_ easier to induce into oversteer (stock power, factory bilsteins, lsd).

Donovan

Wider rear tires/wheels. Coilovers or adjustable shocks set up for understear. New sway bars. etc. I had this problem with the car too when I first got it. You can learn to controll it some with throtle input and learn to stear out of the skid. The best way to avoid this is to get comfortable with the car. It sounds like I'm being a jerk but that's really the best advice. My car used to come around on me a bunch and what was really fun ( made me ***** my pants) is when the rear starts around and you correct just to have it swing out the other direction even more violently. nice. In time I've been able to feel when the car wants to come out and can adjust my driving I also have wider tires in the back however this will affect the ballance of the car a bit. I'm not that great of a driver so I felt it was safer fo me to have some understear.

FDNewbie

iTrader: (10)

I was about to say...are you mashing the pedal or something? Cuz 91 and 92 MR2s are known for snap oversteer, NOT FDs...

carbon man

the rear suspension on a stock FD has a fare bit of toe change under acceleration and comes back when you lift off, alot of drivers in circuit racing who overcook the entry of a corner then lift off end up loosing the rear end. If you do a static wheel alignment checking the toe and do some adjustments to see if you can make it more drivable under the conditions you are trying to drive it at. Different tyres, springs and shock change the the amount of static toe that is requred for maximin traction. Also the more power you can plant to the ground the more toe change you will get. An easy way to see this toe change is put your car up on jack stands and with the rear wheels spinning in 2nd or 3rd gear apply the brake whilst trying to get on power and you will see the rear wheels start to steer. You may want to set a video camera up to capture the amount of movement you get.

~Ian.

Snotcycle

uhm, sorry to be the newbie here but what is "snap" oversteer, i am familiar with understeer and oversteer but have never heard the word snap put in with them

carbon man

different drivers discribe their handling problems in different ways. In most forms of motor racing the driver has to be able to discribe their handling problems to their engineer so a remidy can be found. A good engineer will get his driver to break a problem into parts and amounts so he can understand the problem. If BryanDowns had just said "Oversteer" then the rest of us would have to ask him lots of questions to work out what is happening. Snap Ovesteer is usually linked to a SUDDEN loss of rear grip which is usually driver induced. On some cars when they become coil bound will produce snap oversteer and on some independent rear suspension cars when the rear roll centre migrates out quickly they will produce snap oversteer.

~Ian.

artowar

iTrader: (1)

So you're on the gas when this is happening-- does it coincide with the boost coming in?

DaveW

I'm guessing that you really don't have classic "snap" oversteer.

I think from your description, you are having a loss of traction at large rear slip angles. This is often related to the type of tire, tire pressure, and state of wear. Tires with less tread, harder tread compounds, and stiffer sidewalls are more subject to losing traction at larger slip angles. Low tire pressures can make a tire roll over and lose traction at high slip angles. High pressure will lead to less tread in road contact, and less over-all traction. Also, cold weather will make most compounds act "harder."

Bottom line: a change of tire type, a change to newer tires, and/or a change in tire pressure may help.

Check this out for general handling tips:

http://www.neohio-scca.org/comp_clin...ut%202005a.pdf

BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

I may need to change the tires then. It has 245's up front, and 275's out back. However, they are both heat cycled hard/dead nittos (which arent all that good even when new) I just got the wheels at the same time I finally got the car up and driving.

Also, is the stock rear alignment bad from the factory? Is there a way to align it to be more forgiving? I'm not saying its oversteer happy, just that once it starts oversteering it goes quick. The miata, fbodies, mustangs, even v8 thunderbirds have been very easy to kick the rear end out and control the first time I've driven them. I suppose this one will take a bit of getting used to. I had heard before the FD is very unforgiving, so I assumed this meant that the trailing arms and all the other misc suspension stuff was for correcting it.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

If they are street Nittos, I'd ditch those tires FAST. I've NEVER been impressed with any of their street tires - their drag radials are actually pretty good, though.

Search on some of Howard Coleman's posts - he's got some VERY good wisdom on setting up an FD's suspension, including alignment and air pressure recommendations.

Dale

DamonB

If it's a rear wheel drive car and you're wildly spinning the rear tires when you corner it's going to oversteer every single time. This is not a car, tire or setup problem. It's a right foot problem. You describe it as snap oversteer only because you can't feel it coming and are getting surprised. Any car with power can get away from you quickly.

Snap oversteer means it happens instantly; without warning. You're tooling around a corner and then without warning the car tries to swap ends. If the problem is not driver induced the likely culprits are typically bottoming the rear end, a dead rear shock or worn or binding suspension components.

The only times my car has ever snapped were when I pressed my luck and made a driver mistake.

DaveW

Another thought - with the 275's on the rear (I assume they have stiff sidewalls), you may be getting enough negative camber during squat under hard acceleration in lower gears that only the inside tire edges are contacting the road, causing your uncontrollable O-S.

DamonB

If you're already sideways before losing the car then it's clearly not snap oversteer, it's the driver not being able to hold the car in that attitude.

Miata: lightweight, no power, forgiving
Fbody: heavy, has power, slow steering, live rear axle, forgiving
Mustang: see above
Thunderbird: Heavy, no power, ?

FD: lightweight, power, quick steering, excellent handling.

Things can get out of control faster than in any of the above cars. The FD is completely unlike those cars. It's a very fast and high performance car but it won't suffer fools when driven to the limit. It is an honest chassis but you need some experience to wring the most out of it. While you're building that experience don't try and drive the car sideways and you'll be fine.

DamonB

When the car is cornering the chassis rolls and will leave you with less negative camber than if the car is squatting in a straight line without the chassis rolling.

DaveW

That's true, Damon, but in my experience with racecars that have excessive squat and high camber gain, this can and does happen.

In addition, he's getting this in lower gears, so his lateral G-loads and body roll are probably not very high.

DamonB

I agree.

You break the rear tires lose by being overly aggressive with the throttle while turning and any car will swap ends. The more power the car has the faster it will try and do it.

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

I've approached driving the FD like driving an early Porsche 911.

The rear will rotate QUICKLY, esp. if you LIFT off the throttle in the corner.

On the track if I come into the corner too quickly, I have to fight my instinct to LIFT off the throttle. So I keep into the throttle and actually slowly squeeze more throttle. When in doubt, power out.

This of course will NOT work if you are just way too "hot" coming into the corner, let alone on the street where you don't have room for run-off.

:-) neil

PS: the STOCK rear swaybar, IMHO, is more than enough. A too stiff rear swaybar, will also cause the rear to comeout easier. In the rain, Miata and FD racers will sometimes DISCONNECT the rear swaybar.

Gadd

I've found my car to be very sensitive to toe settings, ANY toe out in the rear will make the car tail happy. If all your alignment settings are correct, try adding more toe in, in the front.

BryanDowns

iTrader: (2)

My miata had over 400hp, seriously. So saying it didnt have power isnt true. It certainly didnt act this way. It also had excellent handling, and what feels like the same steering ratio.

I know alot of foolish newbs come onto the board. I am not one of them. Please dont treat me like one.

I appreciate the comments about rear alignment. I will have this checked out. Is there a common performance/street alignment for FD's that alot of people use? Something not overly agressive that will eat the insides of the tires off on the street, but something agressive enough to add more cornering grip?

kung stew

Alot of gusy use the Pettit settings and seem pretty happy. I agree with what Gadd stated above. In my experience, any rear toe-out has made the car VERY tailhappy.

-Stew