Xion

Update to all.

Still no start

I tried to deflood the car by taking out all the spark plugs, giving them a good clean, and disconnecting the ignition coil harness and cranking. I also disconnected egi

fuel didn’t shoot out of the holes when I did this. I attempted cranking like this for a while too. 3 sets of 15 seconds and 1 of 10. Should be enough

i put the spark plugs back in and connected egi and ignition coil harness back, attempted to start and still nothing. If I put starting fluid it attempts to catch. I feel like it only runs on starting fluid.

so gasoline isn’t being injected? Besides the fuel pump relay, egi relay, and egi fuse, what could prevent injectors from firing? CAS sensors are in the right place now so we can rule that out.

any ideas appreciated guys. Losing my wits here


going to go test egi relay with a multimeter. Will see if it’s ok or not

Xion

BTW you guys know if having a FC thermoswitch prevents a start? I put a FC thermoswitch in my FD so wondering if that could be the issue. It used to have a FD thermoswitch before

Valkyrie

No mist at all?
In that case, you should probably listen to Banzai Racing and make 100% sure that the fuel hoses are connected correctly.
You should also make sure you have fuel in the lines.

Make the feed line pour into a (largish) plastic bottle if you have to. You should probably have someone help with this...

Can you hear the fuel pump when you turn the key on?

Xion

lines are 100% connected right. Plus fuel pump works because I had a fuel leak before when I’d turn the ignition to on. Also no mist no

I think I found the issue. Bad egi relay. Don’t know what would cause it to blow though? Ran perfectly fine before I shut it off and took everything apart to refresh the damn thing. Anyway I did a continuity test on the relay and the fuel pump relay has continuity but not the egi. Egi controls injector firing so probably it. Sucks the relay is $100 but oh well maybe it’ll fix it

Valkyrie

Yeah, a bad EGI relay will keep the injectors from firing...

Before you spend money on parts that might fix it, take the relay out, give it a smack, and try starting the car again.

That, or apply 12 volts to the appropriate terminals to see if it clicks and gives the expected continuity.

There's probably a bench test in the FSM.

Xion

can’t I quickly swap my radio relay (I have the Bose system) in place of the egi relay and see if it fires up? Do you know if the radio relay is 80 amp too? Don’t wanna fry my radio relay lol

billyboy

Was going to suggest listening for the primaries clicking.....with a makeshift stethoscope if need be if you could reach.

All my wiring diagrams are on a recalcitrant hard drive and long time since last playing in the area, but if the EGI was bad, I would have thought the pump would've been a problem all along too, but that's based on pulling the EGI fuse rather than the relay. That relay *** fuse fuse box clips in, you should be able to turn it upside down and probe the backside of the relay in situ with ign on and off. If you replaced the CAS wiring, it suggests the emissions harness was pretty toasty, and disturbing it to replace fuel lines might have had an adverse effect too.

Wouldn't like to chance the radio relay if they're 100 bucks , buckleys being the same current capacity, the thermoswitch wouldn't be a problem.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

I feel your pain. My car flooded a month ago and it took 30 hours to sort out the problem.

We went through the plugs-out deflood 15 times.

Are you RHD or LHD? If RHD are you Version 4 or newer?

Position of coils was changed on Version 4 and later.

Accordingly the short coil harness also changed and the hook up as well.

Is the car not firing at all?

In my case it turned out that I had a bad tank of gas.

We drained the tank and put in Shell 93 and the car tried to start

We then removed the ISC entirely. Did several dry cranks (with plugs in) with fuel pump unplugged.

The car fired on the remaining fuel in the lines with the fuel pump unplugged *.
We hooked up the fuel pump and cranked and it fired up with a tech using his hand to regulate the air being sucked in through the open ISC port.

Previously, every time we tried to start after deflood the engine flooded again almost immediately.

So by removing the ISC the engine could suck in a lot of air to overcome whatever was causing the premature flooding.

Since getting it going it has run excellent every time .

I am getting the FPR changed out this week.

If the FPR is stuck shut the fuel pressure back to the injectors increases considerably.

(The FPR can close prematurely if it loses the vacuum that helps keep it open.)

* it seems that there is a redundant circuit to the fuel pump, so we decided to go straight to unplugging the connector at the pump. One has to be careful not to run the system too lean

Although we think is was bad fuel, we did a lot of remedial work. Some of that might have helped eventually.

Two things we were going to do next, before it got going, was check the injectors for leaking and check the gap between the CAS and the CAS trigger wheel. My gap is a bit wider than spec.

We also found one vacuum leak that was causing the Power FC to "wow" before settling.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

Can you see the actual wire color codes on the wires to the CAS sensors? That should tell you if the connectors are on correctly when compared to the wiring diagram.

The "boost" line on you commander was backgrounded black.

Does that mean your MAP sensor is not working or is unplugged.

Check the continuity of the MAP sensor (also make sure the filter is facing the right direction.

We tested spark from the coils, and nearly blew ourselves up with all the starter fluid in the air.

Although the coils produced spark, we were not sure of the strength of the spark.

We removed an tested the coils and they were within spec.

In any event we replaced all the coils. This may have helped.

You can check your TPS on the commander. Mine was OK, but we replaced it anyway.

MAP sensor was within spec, but we replaced it with one that tested more strongly.

We swapped in a different ISC and replaced the EGI relay (mine was cracked from repeated removal).

At a later stage, we swapped in another Power Fc, which made no difference.

By the end we had swapped in new spark plugs twice.

We checked the continuity of the injectors and the CAS sensor, which were in spec.

So finally we drained the gas (a full tank) and it smelled like ..........water.

The gas station said no one else had problems, but it could be if the gas (Chevron 94/10% ethanol) was watered down, the octane fell below what the Power FC could adjust to.. Newer cars' ecu might have more range.

(Are all your grounds connected properly?)

When you hooked up your FPR did you put vacuum to it directly or are you still running it through the solenoid that controls it?

Did you do a fuel pressure test?

I have subsequently replaced my fuel filter (old one had 170,000 km on it.)

Mind that all the starter fluid will dilute your oil. So you should change oil soon.

Near the beginning, we did a compression test, to make sure we had not suddenly dropped a seal. (It was fine).

Valkyrie

If a car has been sitting for longer than, say, a year, draining old gas (or at least adding enough new to dilute it to nothing) is literally step one of getting a mothballed car running.

Modifed JDM cars are tuned for 97-100 octane, so…. being careful when switching to 93-94 might be prudent.

Though the units might actually be slightly different, like the HP numbers are…

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

they are, in the US we use an average of Research Octane (RON) and Motor Octane (MON), RM2, which gives us a lower number.
Japan (and the EU) just use one measure, i think Ron. its kind of weird their gas is called Ron.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

Perhaps tuners allowed for the octane difference when tuning the Power FC?

Certainly mine did.

He also recommends a tune check up to allow for the change from 94 to 93 and the introduction of ethanol.

Chevron 94 up here was ethanol free until forced to add ethanol by the government last August.

But do we know yet if Xion's car is LHD or RHD?

Valkyrie

I only mean if you import a modified car with an aggressive tune, not if you are getting it tuned in the states.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

Here is an update on my flooding issue remediation, to the extent it might help.

Although we got the car running very well there remained the concern about how easily it flooded, and in that vein how careful I have had to be to not flood.

Basically, to avoid flooding my practice was:

1. Never touch the throttle when starting, trust the ecu. Because my RHD does not have a clutch cut-off switch, I'd actually reach in through the drivers window and start from outside the car.
2. Always warm up the car. Never start and turn off when still cold.
3. Always rev the engine before turning off.

The last two steps to avoid blackening the spark plugs.

Further remediation steps included:.

Step one was to change out the 170,000 km plus fuel filter. As it is considered a pain to get at the fuel filter in its position above the rear axle, I elected to change out the dif and half driveshafts at the same time. Low KM difs are frequently available cheap on Buyee. At the same time, we put in a 4.3:1 ring and pinion set from a low mile Spirit R. This had the benefit of getting rid of a long time nagging clumping sound in my rear axle area.

Today, we had the UIM off to replace the 170,000 km Fuel Pressure Regulator. It turned out the regulator was still good, but we replaced it anyway.

But what we found with the UIM off was that most of the braided vacuum lines from the rebuild in late 2016, were brittle and cracked, including the lines to the FPR and MAP sensor.

If the FPR is not getting proper vacuum it will substantially close, blocking off the return fuel that normally would be going back to the gas tank.

Although the fuel line pressure might force the FPR open somewhat, we were unable to blow through (with our mouths - as per the FSM) the FPR without applying a vacuum gun.

It was instructive that the industrial grade braided vacuum lines only lasted 7 years in the keg adjacent environment.

Further some of the vacuum lines were secured with mini-zip ties, and others were not. The ones that were only pressure fitted pulled off too easy. We will likely use 3 mil metal spring clamps this time.

With the UIM off, we will also change out the Fuel Pulsation Damper. Although mine looks fine, there are many cases where the rubber damper inside the unit rots away and fuel leaks out of the little hole at the top.

That leak being roughly above the turbo, such leaking can be no buono.

We also found evidence that the injectors were leaking slightly, so we will replace their o-rings this week as well.

So I am looking forward to buttoning all that up and enjoying some stronger pulls with my 4.3 ratio rear end, and with better vacuum modulating the waste gate.

When time comes for the car's spring tune up, we will check if the fueling map is too rich at low RPM.

Valkyrie

Anecdotally, my single turbo FD + PowerFC track car has been beaten on quite badly (I have no idea what the compression is) but it fires up instantly every time, even though I have race plugs.

The only time it ever has a hard time starting is from a hot start. I don't think I have ever flooded it in seven or eight years.

Xion

Hey guys,

sorry for my absence, I didn’t even get emails this thread was still going! I was absent as I waited for my new egi fuse to come in.

put the egi fuse in, cranked, no start still.

the fuel pump runs, the car only will run on starting fluid and that’s it.

also for those asking my car is LHD. Tomorrow, I will attempt to start again by switching out the ecu for the old stock one instead of the power fc.

honestly at this point I’m losing my mind as to why it won’t start. It just cranks forever and will only “start” on starting fluid

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

There is a small fuel pump fuse in the Joint Box. In my case it was not blown, but had worked itself loose, while we were screwing around.

Someone who was working on the car might have pulled it and forgot to push it back in.

We were cranking endlessly like you.

Finally changed out the gas.

Engine would catch but not stay caught.

We figured it was still flooding.

Final steps to get it going were as follows:

1. Changed in a new set of plugs one more time.
2. Removed the ISC entirely leaving the port open.
3. Did a "plugs in" deflood, by disconnecting the fuel pump connector at the tank.
4. Cranked the engine, we could smell the excess gas coming out the exhaust.
(engine actually fired briefly with residue gas even with fuel pump unplugged)

5. Plugged the fuel pump connector back in
6. Cranked the engine and it fired and stayed running.
7. Tech was modulating the intake air through the ISC port with his hand.
8. The engine firing with the ISC valve out made a very large roar (don't be scared).
9. Reattached the ISC with the car running.
10. Allowed it to warm up and went for a drive.

The theory behind the above procedure was that, even though we did the deflood procedure before with the fuel pump disabled, when we went to start again, the chambers were flooding too quickly. ( we were applying no throttle, but the power FC would be still be pushing gas even with the throttle plates closed and not allowing (much) air into the manifold.)

Having the ISC out allowed a sh*t ton of air into the manifold, bypassing the throttle body.


************

In the end, It seems the most likely problem was bad gas, but we had also changed out the coils. The old coils had spark, but may have been weak. So we do not know for sure.

Further to our event, we have been looking for further causes of the flooding. With the UIM off we saw staining around the injectors, so we may have had a injector leaking (and therefore dripping gas into the chambers).

We found the FPR was still good, but the vacuum line was frayed. This would mean the FPR would close and put more pressure on the fuel at the injectors.

We pulled the injector rails last night and the rail and injectors are now getting overhauled. We are putting a new FPD as well.

We also found that all my remaining vacuum hoses were rotten ( 7 years since last replacement).

Xion

hey man, let me just say that with holidays around I bet you’re busy and still coming here really makes me appreciate you and your feedback.

few questions for you. How old was your tank of gas? Mine is around half a year old now. Maybe that’s the issue? Mine has sat since july

as for mechanic work, I did a whole refresh under the UIM. Got cleaned injectors, brand new rubber everywhere and new o rings and vac lines. New FPR and FPD as well. They are connected in the stock twin configuration with only the emissions deleted and blocked off with block off plates.

I will check that fuel pump fuse but let me tell you this. One time I cranked (no start of course) but I could smell gas out the exhaust. This means the injectors are firing no? Will check if it smells again. This isn’t a one time thing btw. It was just the one time I checked for a gas smell there was one.


also my car isn’t flooded and I also tried an extensive deflood procedure with spark plugs out and coil pack disconnected in order for motor to crank and try to spit gas out the spark plug holes. Result? Nothing didn’t work

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

My case was a brand new full tank. If the gas was bad, I may have had enough of the good gas in the system to get me to the shop in the morning, then the bad gas started to flow.

II suggest you change out your gas. You may have got some condensation in there over 6 months.

Residual gas from a flood may hang around for a while.

I may be wrong but as we looked at things, it seems there is two electrical circuits to the fuel pump. So even with the EGI relay out, your pump might still be getting power. Therefore continuing to push fuel into the chamber.

Therefore, we went with disconnecting the connector right at the fuel pump.

Something we will be checking further is if the power FC is mapped a bit rich for low idle. I was having chugging problems at low speed, so in tuning that out, the map may have been made richer in the lower registers, making the car more prone to flooding.

If you have had a emission delete, your stock ECU will not like it. So trying it may not help.

I will mention that at an early stage the techs put in ATF. The idea being that if the compression is weak, the atf will help that out. In my case the car fired and blew up a bunch of oily smoke. So we began with thinking the the plugs were both fouled and flooded.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

We started with a compression test. Looks quite nice.

Deep into it. Testing for continuity everywhere, checking fuel pressure, etc., etc.

Found someone had not pushed that 20amp back in properly (your fuse may be in a different position).

The second and third lines on the left are your TPS ranges. If you turn on your power (but not start) and step on the throttle, the reading on the second line should rise and fall, showing if you TPS is in range. Mine was fine.

A full tank of gas (65 litres) cost about C$150 up here. This lot smelled like.....water.

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

New coils are expensive, but as many people replace with aftermarket, used ones in working order can usually be found for, like , $100 a set.

Test before swapping in, of course.

My existing coils tested OK, but the techs sense from driving the car in the week prior was that they may have been weak.

We swapped them out.

Xion

hey man so I tried to use my stock ecu and that didn’t seem to make a difference in fixing the no start vs apexi. I also checked my fuses under the dash and they’re all fine especially the fuel pump fuse you mentioned.

attached is a video of me taking the supply line off and setting the key to on to get pump to prime and then turning it off to verify fuel passes through feed, throughout whole system, and out through supply. So I do have fuel, I also have spark. Now I’m thinking the injectors aren’t firing. I put a brand new egi relay in, made sure CAS connectors were connected correctly, so I’m not sure what else could prevent fuel injectors from firing? Maybe they are and the 6 month old gas isn’t igniting at all but I’d have to pull spark plugs again and see if they’re wet right after a crank attempt.

Xion

Attached is a picture and also a video of my setup. Does the fuel shooting out of the supply line look like it has low pressure?

Redbul

iTrader: (26)

I did not know we could attach vids.

I can't tell fuel pressure like that.

But you certainly have fuel flow, haha.

My bet at this time is bad gas.

The gas tank has a drain at the bottom. Easy to drain.

New gas should dilute any bad gas in the lines, but you may want to crank until the new gas fills the lines.

For my car cranking cranking without firing looked like no spark at all, but it was the flooding.

Take the plugs out once more. .

Do a deflood procedure with the fuel pump unplugged.

Leave the plugs out overnight and let the chambers breathe.

Put the plugs back in, put in the egi fuse and egi relay

Connect the fuel pump.

And try to start again with the new fuel.

If it still will not catch try the ISC removed procedure I described above.

**********

Regarding the injectors, try to check if they are getting current.

Someone above mentioned listening for the injectors clicking. I don't know how to do that.

Xion

yeah maybe it’s bad gas but I thought rotaries would still run on almost anything? However, as you can see from the picture and video my fuel looks green. Shouldn’t look like that even with premix right? I think this fuel is from April…

also is it safe to leave spark plugs out overnight? I thought anything getting in the rotor housings could **** it up like little debris flowing from the wind or mice? I do have mice around as I live in the country but not sure if those little f*****s would get in overnight.

as for the clicking of the injectors I heard that too but I don’t know how to test that either. I could get a noid light and hook it up to the injector connectors but there’s no way a brand new harness connected to a good ecu (tried 2 ecus) wouldn’t be giving power to the injectors. And if not what could it be? I already changed the egi relay to a brand new one.

I’ll start with draining fuel and putting new fuel in. If that doesn’t work I’ll deflood and try again. If that doesn’t work then I’m sending this junk to the junkyard (just kidding).