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Rich has me thinking which is bad as ai over think. He installed the KSP Attain pan on his car and my research pull up two other options. All three exist to increase the passive cooling of the transmission. The KSP Attain Transmission pan looks beautiful in billet machined aluminum with deep machined fins with side drain, the FEED Transmission pan uses a cast aluminum pan and fins with bottom drain, and 3) the cheapest option, but used but some Japanese racing teams, while the Super Now Trans Fin Plate in anodized machined billet aluminum adds deep fins but no capacity increase.
The KSP and FEED each add 1 liter of oil capacity and offer enough edge material to tap in cooling lines for active cooling.
Who has success actual with any of these versions? The +/-‘s as I see are the FEED casting may be more brittle, and has slightly reduced surface area of fins but offers bottom drain and may be liger vs. the KSP, however if the KSP is not heat treated, the fins may easily bend off with an off course adventure. The Super Now may have similar problem as KSP but for sure the anodized finish will not be as good as the other two for radiating heat away. Best would be a radiating heat coating on all of them, but again the Super .. anodizing must be removed first.
I have also seen a CNC'd spacer that goes between the pan and the transmission, dropping it a little bit to increase capacity. That would probably be something that would be relatively simple for a CNC fab shop to make.
Big thing is it's hard to say what advantage these mods would give. The FD trans is pretty damn strong, while these mods are cool what is the failure that they're preventing?
While all of those would increase thermal rating, I don't see that as being an issue with this transmission. Especially if you're running synthetic oil.
The only real application I can see for these is during extended lapping on the road course. I picked one up at the suggestion of my transmission builder in order to help protect the OS Giken internals, which were so freaking pricey I have zero desire to ever replace them
Who knows what the actual temps even are. Who has a trans fluid temp sensor? For all we know, they run in spec and fluid temp isn't the issue.
My guess though, is that it IS, and this helps a bit. They aren't cheap though (from RHD). I thought about having my local race shop do trans and diff coolers for me... those would presumably be more effective.
Who knows what the actual temps even are. Who has a trans fluid temp sensor? For all we know, they run in spec and fluid temp isn't the issue.
My guess though, is that it IS, and this helps a bit. They aren't cheap though (from RHD). I thought about having my local race shop do trans and diff coolers for me... those would presumably be more effective.
I'd like to have one cooler and one pump take care of the trans and the diff. The lines and the cooler would add some oil and just circulating it through a cooler would really keep the temps down.
I've lost 1 diff and 3 transmissions and I think it's related to temps. Gears/case getting hot and the gears separate and BOOM.
One consideration to this plan is mixing diff and trans oil any thoughts? Currently I run the same Neo in both the trans and the diff.
Never measured trans temps, but these pans will give room to add a temp probe. Don’t add a 100 gauges, add a 3-way selector switch .. oiltemp: engine, diff, trans. Even with synthetics, diff temps have gone above 280 F. While I don’t like the big Greddy rear diff cover (I continue to have nightmares of a cracked cover) I am going to work on a diff. cooling system. Key is getting airflow to the cooler without exposing it to track damage. Lotus is putting NACA ducts into the bottom of their Evora road car diffusers so as to capture air for cooling functions. Just purchased a diffuser, I just need to find the space. As to the trans pans yes RHDjapan carries all three and I must give them credit for using their photos.
Excuse crappy cell phone photos but I put temp gauige down by cig lighter. rotated so max normal is pointing up. Note, warning light is not for rpms but for water temperature, its on its own sensor, my solution to the non-linear OEM gauge, which I actually like, to me any additional movement of the needle after warm up means warning.
That would be real easy to do. But what kind of pump would be needed?
Pump needs to be a diaphragm pump so as not to die with the small metal particles. I use Pegasus Racing for almost all my needs, maybe not the cheapest source but, they are knowledgeable large inventory and super-fast deliverers.
I should have called this thread "Cooling Solutions"
I'd like to have one cooler and one pump take care of the trans and the diff. The lines and the cooler would add some oil and just circulating it through a cooler would really keep the temps down.
I've lost 1 diff and 3 transmissions and I think it's related to temps. Gears/case getting hot and the gears separate and BOOM.
One consideration to this plan is mixing diff and trans oil any thoughts? Currently I run the same Neo in both the trans and the diff.
I would not run the same oil in the diff and trans. They have different kinds of gears subjected to different types of loading. In the diff, use a synthetic rear axle oil loaded with EP additives. Redline Lightweight shockproof for example. In the trans you have to play nice with the synchros, and for that Neo 75w-90 HD is pretty good. So I would not conjoin the oil supply of the diff and trans unless the trans was converted to a crashbox.
The way I look at it, the stock trans and diff ran just fine on the street with mineral oil at temps well below freezing. If you go up one viscosity grade and use synthetic, the cold pumpability will be as good and your elevated temperature performance will be drastically better.
As for broken diffs and transmissions, sometimes overload is just overload. The trans 3rd gear can only take so much, and the diff case can only take so much. Braces seem to help the diff but the transmission gears tend to involve a lot more to beef up.
All that aside, you can only draw so much from engineering principles. We're pretty much bench racing these solutions. If anyone chooses to study the problem and try some fixes that information is where the real answers lie.
Don't know what pumps were used, one of the guys over here, soon after purchasing a dedicated circuit FD, forgot to switch on his gearbox and diff ones and cooked them both in short order. I think some of the points, such as removing the anodizing, for added heat transfer, are fairly minor in the scheme of things, heat shielding the diff and box from exhaust heat, for example, would have far greater benefit.
Pump: Tilton #40-524 2.1 gpm
Cooler (what you can fit)?: Setrab 50-613-7012 (full width 13 row) is a common Diff cooler but its size of 13 x 4 x 1-7/8t may be tight. Alternatives 7 row 13 x 2.1 x 1-7/8 or fhalf width series: 13 row 8-1/4 x 4 x 1-7/8; or 7 row 8-1/4 x 2.1 x 1-7/8. I have made no atempt to mock up yet and determine.
Really cant see the need for those pans. Increasing fluid capacity is nice but in all likelyhood probably doesnt help as much as what kind of fluid you use. These cars were designed from the factory to handle almost a lateral g so it probably wont help with keeping the oil where it is needed. If your truly worried about keeping the fluid cool the main points have been covered here. Heat shielding for the components that are near hot exhaust components and air to oil coolers with pumps are going to be the only things that will make a difference that is properly represented by how much you spent. I would just forget that those pans exist. Especially for what they cost.
The twin turbo supra had an optional diff cooler setup in the European models that used one of the rear side vents, an air to oil cooler and a pump to keep the diff cool. I wonder why they didnt use a cover with big fins and a larger fluid capacity like the $400 greddy one? lol.
I would not run the same oil in the diff and trans. They have different kinds of gears subjected to different types of loading. In the diff, use a synthetic rear axle oil loaded with EP additives. Redline Lightweight shockproof for example. In the trans you have to play nice with the synchros, and for that Neo 75w-90 HD is pretty good. So I would not conjoin the oil supply of the diff and trans unless the trans was converted to a crashbox.
The way I look at it, the stock trans and diff ran just fine on the street with mineral oil at temps well below freezing. If you go up one viscosity grade and use synthetic, the cold pumpability will be as good and your elevated temperature performance will be drastically better.
As for broken diffs and transmissions, sometimes overload is just overload. The trans 3rd gear can only take so much, and the diff case can only take so much. Braces seem to help the diff but the transmission gears tend to involve a lot more to beef up.
All that aside, you can only draw so much from engineering principles. We're pretty much bench racing these solutions. If anyone chooses to study the problem and try some fixes that information is where the real answers lie.
David
Hi David,
When buying the oil myself I always go w/ neo 75 90 HD in both the trans and the diff with no issues and it's a GL 2 through 5 so it covers all the bases. I think all the 5s have the additives to stick pretty well but no doubt using an extra shock proof oil would probably be of benefit however I'm not a redline fan.
I may give the neo 75 140 a go in trans next time. Any thoughts on that one?
Yep that's what I was thinking with mixing so if and when I add a cooler I'll go trans only but I may talk to the shop about adding a filter and using one cooler. I figure if I'm buying the pump and cooler may as well cool two things but again I definitely don't want hunks of metal messing up my syncros.
Really cant see the need for those pans. Increasing fluid capacity is nice but in all likelyhood probably doesnt help as much as what kind of fluid you use. These cars were designed from the factory to handle almost a lateral g so it probably wont help with keeping the oil where it is needed. If your truly worried about keeping the fluid cool the main points have been covered here. Heat shielding for the components that are near hot exhaust components and air to oil coolers with pumps are going to be the only things that will make a difference that is properly represented by how much you spent. I would just forget that those pans exist. Especially for what they cost.
In light of the fact that when low power/torque high rev NA rotaries use TII and FD transmissions they don't last long at the track...
I would say cooling your trans AND fluid is one of the best things you could do to extend its life on the track. As in, its not the torque killing them in the above application.
No, it won't save you from shearing 3rd with big torque, but it will keep it lasting longer and keeping the aluminum case cooler will actually lower the case/bearing/shaft/gear deflection lowering the instance of catastrophic failure (like shearing 3rd).
See how quickly aluminum gives up strength to heat
TomU since you bumped an old thread, to clarify the OP, there is actually heat transfer benefits of an anodized finish
Furthermore, the alloy and process of the aluminum part makes a real difference in the thermal conductivity.
02-07-12, 08:48 PM
