SleepR1

Nic, I have a Koyo radiator already. The V-mount IC comes with its own radiator, so there would major mods that need to be done with the V-mount and my Koyo. I guess I like the way the sequential setup works with delivering "some" lower end torque for street driving, while giving me a good power curve on the track.

Tell you what, if any of the single turbo road racers want to let me try his car on track, for a full evaluation...hee hee

SleepR1

With the parts list below, is an upgraded fuel a "NEED TO HAVE" or "NICE TO HAVE"?? If it's a "NEED TO HAVE", then which fuel pump? Walbro? Nippondenso Competition Fuel Pump? Cosmo?

TailHappy

Just wanted to commend R1 for starting this thread. Had some conversations with a fellow "road racer" this weekend about how things you read on the forum have to be taken with a big grain of salt. What works for some on the street (or strip) certainly may not (and probably doesn't) apply to the track.

I just got back yesterday from my third club event, so I can't offer too much advice, but gimme some time and that number will definitely be going up. For some reason they stuck me in with the fast group this time and that was definitely a humbling experience. I have a little ways to go before I can hang with the Shelby Cobras (driven by guys that didn't seem to mind if they wadded them up) and the AWD TT Porsches....

I'm also glad to see that the FD is a strong enough platform to survive regular events. To be honest, I was starting to have some doubts. I know this last event has caused several new squeaks and rattles in my car, and now it doesn't want to idle (although it still runs fine). Hoping it's just a fouled plug.......

I hope this thread stays alive. For what it's worth, here's my current setup. Rollbar and upgraded suspension are high on wish my list. Maybe I'll see some of you at the next MADS!

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

SleepR1,
RE - Fuel pump: at 10-11psi of boost probably not needed. But for $100-150 (used) just drop in a Desno pump out of a Supra for some peace of mind. At 12psi you igyt run into injector limitations but can probably be made passable with good tuning. My tuning is mediocre and I see 90%+ duty cycles at 12 psi. I'll probably install 1300 cc secondaries for good measure.
Regards,
Crispy

My mods list: stock original sequential turbos on orignal motor ;-)

SleepR1

TailHappy--Welcome to the wonderful world of road racing Seriously there are a few of us diehard road racers, and only a few have chimed in

Crispy, thanks...I'm sure I won't go higher than 10 psi. If the motor does, it's not because I turned up the boost, but from some other reason (boost creep? boost spike? who knows what else?). Tell me again, will I or will I NOT need an external boost controller, if I'm using the A'pex Power FC with commander to control boost parameters? rynberg says I should run one (I guess the cheap, simple, reliable Greddy Profec B?), due to fuel cutout if the twins exceed 0.25 psi above the preset 10 psi limit?? How many miles on that original motor and sequential twins? Are you getting close to my mileage (102,250)? FWIW, my R1 was built in April 1992 also--VIN JM1FD3314P0205030 (yeah I'm sick, I have my VIN memorized )

TailHappy

I really wouldn't expect you to need anything other than the PFC to control boost, especially for stock levels. I ran with it for a year on my stock twins and I've yet to feel fuel cut. My only complaint was that the boost gauge will move all over the place, but I think that's at least partially the nature of a sequential setup. I had the same thing happening with a remapped stock ECU. Generally the PFC seemed to keep boost around +/-2 psi of where you set it. But with a RX6 and Profec B, it sits solidly on a single number. All in all, I don't regret buying the PFC whatsoever. If nothing else, I was thrilled to get rid of that damn 3000 rpm stumble!

I never tried it myself, but I don't think a Profec B is optimal for controlling twins. The PFC allows you to define two switchable settings for duty cycle and peak boost for each turbo, where the Profec B is just going to have one **** for duty cycle and two switchable peaks. Friends have said it didn't do a good job handling the primary turbo. Plus the PFC is supposed to have some degree of learning, but I never noticed that happening in reality.

Another thing I meant to mention before, is that I spent some time using a friend's Datalogit and it's impressive. You can dump maps back in forth in seconds (compared with the Haltech which takes minutes). Also, you can hook both the datalogit AND the commander up at the same time, although you don't have to (I think you asked that before). However, if you're like me, I'm not sure it's worth buying. If you just want to set it and forget it, you can hook it up one time, change everything you want, and then disconnect it again. That's how I dropped my fan temps. Would be nice to have the datalogging though.

Coulthard Fan

SleepR1 - I don't (yet) meet your definition of an experienced track junkie, so I'll not get into my opinions in this thread. But, I can't believe Wade hasn't chimed in saying that you don't need an upgraded ECU at stock boost levels as the OEM computer is already quite rich.

Or was it Scott Kight that always says that? Anyway, someone already did A/F tests with a wideband on a stock ECU to prove this.

Tim Benton

iTrader: (1)

in cold weather, the PFC won't be able to keep the boost at 10.5 psi. It will go past that and more than likely hit the fuel/boost cut .25 psi higher. Only good thing is that the PFC has map space (for the boost spike) and can react quicker than a stock or re chipped ecu since its a faster processor to the boost spike. A Dawes device might be needed in cold weather, but above 60, the PFC works great and is stable, it just can't adjust, like the stock ecus duty cycles ; or the PFS PMC controlled duty cycles, the duty cycles for the cold dense air so its more creep in nature than spike in nature. I've had my duty cycles lowered and turned the boost down to 10 psi last winter and I'd hit the cut around 5 to 6K, so it allows to more boost at all pint of load in cold weather. A search of the PFC forum section might yield the old post of mine concerning the cold weather and PFC and Chuck's informative response.

Hope that helps as far as the PFC is concerned.
A fuel pump, cosmo upgrade or supra nippon denso should give you more piece of mind and take any worries concerning sustained fuel pressure on the take and it dropping off.


Tim

redrotorR1

IMO, I would say it's a NEED to have. With all the mods that you have planned, the fuel pump suddenly becomes the weak link in the system. Any of the fuel pumps that you've mentioned should do the trick. Check out this link for a package deal ... knock out two birds with one stone:

http://www.shaneracing.com/srspecls.html

SleepR1

redrotorR1, according to Wade Lanham, the stock fuel system is adequate up to 15 psi on the stock sequentials http://www.newwave.net/~flanham/wlan...l/fuelfaq.html I'll be at stock boost levels on the Japan specs so...

coulthard fan, everyone seems to think that a ported motor mated to Japan spec twins will be too much for the stock ECU to handle. Don't forget I have DP/HiFlo Cat/RB dual tip catack. The saving grace is the air intake with RB duct, K&N drop-in filter with stock airbox and IC... Even with these mods, the consensus seems to be that a stand-alone unit like the A'pexi Power FC is the way to go...

Admittedly I'm still baffled by the need or no need for the stand-alone boost controller? Why can't I just use the pill that I'm using now on my stock US spec twins that limits the boost to 10.5 psi???

Ned Schifferdecker

Don't waste your time on what turbo or how much boost to run, work your way up. what you NEED TO DO is focus on first having a car that will actually finish the day without scattering parts or fluids all over the track and ruining everyones day.
#1 Get rid of the antifreeze, put in just a little about a quart to lube the water pump, fill the rest with distilled water and a good coolant additive, there are many . Dont remove the thermostadt just gut it.
#2 Flush brake and clutch system with good brake fluid, I like Motul but there are others it is your ***.
If the event is more than one day repeat above. If you have a long drive home repeat again.
#3 VERY IMPORTANT BRAKES ARE EVERYTHING!!! Your brake system is the only thing that will bring you and your beloved car home in one piece. One would not normally think that a brake upgrade as a performance upgrade but I would defy anyone who has raced in competition to argue this point. I am currently racing a shifter kart, believe me you can out brake competitors with faster engines and beat them.
Take spare pads and rotors and be ready to install them.
I can personally recomend Carbotech pads. Talk to Larry at carbotech.com He has some rotor friendly pads that work. I drive mine on the street just fine. Squeek a bit but stop just short of internal injury, very dusty but get used to it you are on your way to racing.
#4 BELTS You will not stay planted in your seat in a 3RD Gen RX7 even with **** tires unless you are properly belted in! You are going to need a quality 5 point harness. The mounting rules change at different venues so check B4 you go. I use the stock points and the rear strut brace and feel secure but again at high speed it is your car and you *** so don't skimp here.
If you move in your seat you can't controll the car.
#5 Roll bar, your choice. If you make contact you may roll. At the very least I would have a face sheild for your helmet because the glass does fly when the windows explode. Sounds stupid but do it once and you will see.
#6 TIRES If you want to go faster than the other guy and the rules allow you have to get bigger sticker tires!
Tires are everything, More GRIP=Lower lap times. Let your wallet be the guide. Hoosiers are the best, Kuhmos last longer and are better when real hot.
If you plan on doing this type of thing often don't ruin expensive street tires. I personally totally destroyed a set of Bridgestones on a new WRX a few momths ago at an Auto-X. The guy wondered why my Miata beat him and invited me to drive his car.
Even the best street tires cant take the abuse of a good autocross course much less a racetrack.
#7 NOW I WILL TRY TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!
Learn the track then decide the boost, too much and it is tail out loose and losing time, too little and no torque so no speed out of the turns. The stock system has allways worked fine for me as long as is operates properly. The main thing is to hone your skills get the right tires and brakes and learn what the car can really do. you may be amazed at a 3rd. Gen RX7 can do with no mods at all with the right driver. I have whipped Vetts with a Miata on a road course.
#8 HAVE FUN AND BE SAFE

SleepR1

Hey Ned! Welcome to the Rx7 Forum. I'm flattered that you picked my thread to respond to, as your first post FWIW, I'm attuned to all that you posted above, but it's worth pointing out again to those who might lose sight of what the priorities are in "road racing" (term used loosely )

All--I've been looking hard at my budget ($10K to $12K). The new turbos, ported motor, installation labor, A'pexi PFC/commander, new racing wheels/tires take up 70% of that. I don't have much room for go-fast parts. Staying with Chuck's HMIC setup will quickly escalate beyond my budget max.

Since I don't plan to run higher than 10 psi boost level, I've been thinking about the Greddy SMIC, pictured here in Jason Baughman's Rx7Store.Net website? http://66.216.67.51/product.asp?0=215&1=301&3=419

I could save myself some dough by using my current stock airbox with Racing Beat intake duct, and just replacing the IC, which is REALLY the wink link in the system.

IMO, the stock airbox works very well with the RB intake duct, so I don't see the need to improve upon that. I know about the debate regarding the air box "stealing" air from the IC, so let's not go there. Suffice it to say that I'm aware of the issue.

With high speed road course driving, the ram-air effect into the IC duct will cancel out the effect of the air intake sucking cooling air away from the IC, ie, there will be more cooling air available to the IC, than what the air intake is "stealing" away from the IC--AT HIGH SPEEDs--at least this what I surmise

In low speed driving applications, like autocrossing, the airbox probably does suck cooling air away, and perhaps, OUT OF of the IC, effectively rendering the IC useless. But that's a concern for the autocrossers, not us road racers

Ok, back at the ranch--the Greddy SMIC's core looks MUCH bigger than the puny stock IC core. The Greddy SMIC core appears comparable to the PFS SMIC core with regard to dimensions?

IMO, Chuck's 935 cfm, or Kevin's 750 cfm IC core units would be overkill for a 10-psi Japan spec twin turbo/ported motor application?

My only concern with the Greddy SMIC is with how well the Greddy duct mods work with the stock IC ducting, and IF the Greddy IC ducting interferes with my RB intake duct, which is "silicone-glued" to the stock IC duct?

Since the Greddy SMIC is a DIRECT replacement for the puny stock IC, I presume the Greddy SMIC piping will work with an Anfini cross-over pipe??

Thoughts? Opinions? Rants? I'm open to reading anything you have to type

Nathan Kwok

The Greddy SMIC is not compatible with the stock crossover intake pipe (the one connecting the snorkel to the IC duct), but otherwise is compatible with everything else, including the stock ductwork (may need some work for best fitment) and Y-pipe (Efini included). It will work with the RB duct, however (see pic). In terms of size, Scuderia has a bunch of numbers, basically the Greddy has very comparable volume to the "larger" ICs out there, but comes up a bit short on the frontal area. My friend who tracks his car at 10psi seems to like his well enough, says it stays pretty cool. The smaller frontal area has the added advantage of letting more air flow out the back of the radiator, especially with a relocated battery and narrow intake. so it may not be all bad.

rotaryextreme

iTrader: (2)

I finally figure out a way to put back the AC condensor with the V Mount IC/Radiator.

I will start doing the prototype after I drop in this beauty into my engine bay so I have something to work with.



The only thing you will have to do to fit the AC condensor is to use a brake line pipe bender to loop one of th AC line on the dryer. I will have brackets welded onto the radiator so the condensor just bolt on.

Stay tuned...

Chuck

SleepR1

I'm not clear on this statement. Based on the picture you attached, the Greddy SMIC looks completely compatible with the stock Y and crossover pipe (or Anfini Y and crossover pipe) that leads into the "inlet" side of the IC?

You must be referring to the stock intake duct that connects the stock airbox to the stock IC duct? Clarify for me what you mean??

Now that I look at the pic, this looks more like the SR Motorsports SMIC?? http://www.shaneracing.com/srinter2b.jpg http://www.shaneracing.com/srinterb.jpg

Can you verify which SMIC is in the pic you attached?

BTW is a battery miniaturization kit required with the Greddy SMIC setup? I thought you could leave the stock battery in place??

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

Manny,
In short my suggestions: 1) Install a higher flowing fuel pump for peace of mind. Like I said you can pick up a used Supra pump for $100. Anything bigger (read more expensive) IMO for your application is overkill, 2) Wade has some very compelling evidence that shows the stock ECU is capable of handling the boost levels you are proposing. And he may be correct. Then again he may not...every 7 is unique and operates slightly differently. My suggestion, get the PFC. Not only will you have the peace of mind (again) that you have enough fuel but the PFC can be used for other things as well, fan control for example, and 3) skip the boost controller. The PFC has done fine for me in every situation running anywhere from 10 to 13 psi. And I have hours of track footage to prove this. If you do have a problem then get a controller but I wouldn't say at this point it's a must have.
Regards,
Crispy

FWIW my car: 42k miles on original motor and stock sequential turbos with a build date of April '92.

DamonB

My 2 cents:

Preparation of the car is everything (I was always a Roger Penske fan!). If the car is bulletproof you can spend your time making adjustments to the car and yourself instead of "fix-its" in the pits.

As someone mentioned grip is everything on a road course. Next is brakes. Grip and brakes will always beat horsepower (within reason anyway). Grip brings me to suspension: no one setup is always right. If you really want to max the car for each track you have to spend time testing settings. The adjustments I have available are the Tripoint bar, Konis, tire pressures and alignment. This is plenty to sometimes get you lost and scratch your head at times. Even with the feeling that I have a good grasp of chassis dynamics it has taken me a while to get to the point where I can eyeball a course and pick a baseline setting to get me in the ball park.

My basic setup goal for any course goes like this: I run the front bar as stiff as I can without push. This keeps weight on the inside rear tire through the corner and I can throttle the car more while still being able to drive it through the corner if needed. I then use the amount of front shock I need to balance the bar with the track and bumps. After I get the front set, I use the rear to balance the chassis. Again I try and run it as stiff as possible without giving up grip. For myself I have always ended up running less shock and lower tire pressure in the rear.

My next big suspension mod will be having my Konis custom valved. Everybody is stuck on which coilover setup is the in thing and let me tell you that a shock is a shock as long as the build quality is there. What makes shocks work is the valving. Even adjustables are only adjustable over a certain range and right now I feel I would like to have even more damping in the front end and I am running stock springs!

SleepR1

Damon,

I wish I had your patience in suspension tuning...this job ranks right up there with motor tuning!! I hate it...

I just want to hop in the car and DRIVE!

I guess this is why my crew-guy calls me a "wheel spacer"...I'm the guy the fills the space betwen the front and rear wheels

Seriously, the stock Showa R1 shocks, H&R springs, Eibach sway bars, Tri-Point front sway bar reinforcer, Type RS brakes, R4E pads, SSR Comps (now belong to Jaymz), and Hoosier R3S03s all work together in such a way that, despite my tired motor and turbos I was still able to run away from Ramon Ceron and his KDR "special sauce-powered motor" at Road America (a little experience helps too )!

Nathan Kwok

Manny,
The pic I attached is the Greddy, notice the cool endtake has kind of a pointy top with the Greddy, while the SR has a flat top. When I said "crossover", I meant the piece that is replaced by the RB inlet duct, so maybe I should have said inlet duct. The ONLY SMIC ICs that are compatible with the stock "inlet duct" is the Mazdaspeed and the Blitz. The rest require either cutting or removing it. This includes the Greddy and SR, which are both pretty small. None of the mentioned require any change to the battery. Here is another picture of the Greddy so you can see what I mean by the inlet duct not fitting.

SleepR1

Ahhh, dude...that's the ticket...I'm ordering a Greddy SMIC from Jason Baughman@ the Rx7 Store... FWIW Fritz Flynn hooked me with his old stock air box and RB duct; mine is 102,250-miles old and needs a better conditioned one to go with the new Greddy SMIC

From what I can tell the Greddy dimensions look similar if not larger than the PFS IC? Since the PFS IC and cool air intake work similarly to the stock air box with RB intake, I don't see why an FD owner would spend $1700 on Peter Farrell's setup, when you can do a similar setup for half?

As for Chuck Huang's HMIC. I still think the HMIC or V-mount/rad combo is the sh*t, but woe is me...a poor road racer with no sponsorship...so must use personal funds to finance go-fast parts...which means going the economical route...

Seriously with only 10 psi of boost from the J-spec twins, I can't imagine I'd need more IC cooling than what the Greddy SMIC can provide???!!!

SleepR1

Nathan,

Does the Greddy SMIC kit come with a hard hose kit that replaces the flex hose the stock IC comes with ??

What modifications to the stock IC duct do I need to make to have the Greddy SMIC work with the stock IC duct?

Thanks for the tip and pics...It's helped med tremendously in deciding on an IC (that fits my poor-man's budget)!

Nathan Kwok

Manny,
I don't think the Greddy comes with the metal hose kit, but don't quote me on that. As far as getting the duct to fit, they include a metal piece that kind of complements the stock duct, and apparently it does take a little fitment for a perfect seal, but nothing too big. I looked up the numbers, and sizewise, it is very similar to the PFS in every respect, take a look at this:

http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/intercoolers.html

maxpesce

For a car dediticated to 50%+ Track use the PS could be eliminated for weight reduction and it's petty much useless over 10mph
Also be carefull working with the PS cooling loop as it is in the HIGH PRESSURE (600+psi) portion of the oil circuit. If you plan on making any custom hoses or hard lines have them done at a shop that is used to working with HIGH pressure hydraulic equipment.

Tim Benton

iTrader: (1)

The stock mount IC's have been beaten to death like the synthetic debate. The PFS IC is just a bigger in frontal surface than the greddy which is very important in the cooling ability of an IC. Next the thickness needs to be thick enough, but to thick as to affect the flow through the core. The core design, bar and plate (better) and tube and fin also plays a part. The PFS IC has more volume than the Greddy, better flow characteristics than the Greddy due to its very tight squeeze to the inlet side on the bottom. If you're running only 10.5 psi, then you won't be able to tell that the PFS is better by maybe 5 HP if that, so it just comes down to the money factor that you can get each one at, but IMO the PFS, when not considering the price, a better design IC.

Tim

redrotorR1

SleepR1,
The Greddy 2-pc IC piping kit can be had for a little less than $300. It does NOT include the Greddy elbow (extra $115), which will be necessary should you choose to buy the piping kit. It does not have any fitment issues (the piping kit, that is) and should come with everything you need (pipes, silicone couplers, fasteners). Check out the scuderiaciriani site ... there's a lot of interesting writeups on IC comparisons.

My local rotary guru swears by the Greddy units, despite their smaller size and lower flowrates. Some other forum members have also posted identical dyno numbers between the M2 medium vs. the Greddy unit. So, as Tim said, it probably boils down to how much you're willing to pay.

Don