Electrolysis ate my Fluidyne!
Racecar - Formula 2000
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,033
Likes: 369
From: Bath, OH
Sort of on subject - I've had the best luck preventing corrosion in my racecar using Valvoline V V 858 super-coolant with distilled water. I never liked the Water-wetter (it left crappy deposits everywhere), and tap water caused corrosion and/or mineral deposits.
here is a quote from a web site i found about galvanic corrosion (corrosion caused by electrolysis:
Quality engineering and design requires an understanding of material compatibility. There are three conditions that must exist for galvanic corrosion to occur. First there must be two electrochemically dissimilar metals present. Second, there must be an electrically conductive path between the two metals. And third, there must be a conductive path for the metal ions to move from the more anodic metal to the more cathodic metal. If any one of these three conditions does not exist, galvanic corrosion will not occur. Galvanic corrosion can be minimized in design. Corrosion engineers have found the following practical rules invaluable in this respect (reference):
Select combinations of metals which will be in electrical contact from groups as close together as possible in the galvanic series
Electrically insulate from each other metals from different groups, wherever practical. If complete insulation cannot be achieved, paint or plastic coating at joints will help
If you must use dissimilar materials well apart in the series, avoid joining them by threaded connections as the threads will probably deteriorate excessively. Brazed or thermal joints are preferred, using a brazing alloy more noble than at least one of the metals to be joined
Avoid making combinations where the area of the less noble, anodic metal is relatively small compared with the area of the more noble metal.
Apply coatings with judgment. Example: Do not paint the less noble metal without also painting the more noble; otherwise, greatly accelerated attack may be concentrated at imperfections in coatings on the less noble metal. Keep such coatings in good repair.
Consider use of cathodic protection.
from http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Air...alv-design.htm
for those of you considering running only 25% coolant and 75% water and especially using tap water, read this... it also explains electrolysis specific to radiator failure in some passages.
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antif...dradsgobad.htm
Quality engineering and design requires an understanding of material compatibility. There are three conditions that must exist for galvanic corrosion to occur. First there must be two electrochemically dissimilar metals present. Second, there must be an electrically conductive path between the two metals. And third, there must be a conductive path for the metal ions to move from the more anodic metal to the more cathodic metal. If any one of these three conditions does not exist, galvanic corrosion will not occur. Galvanic corrosion can be minimized in design. Corrosion engineers have found the following practical rules invaluable in this respect (reference):
Select combinations of metals which will be in electrical contact from groups as close together as possible in the galvanic series
Electrically insulate from each other metals from different groups, wherever practical. If complete insulation cannot be achieved, paint or plastic coating at joints will help
If you must use dissimilar materials well apart in the series, avoid joining them by threaded connections as the threads will probably deteriorate excessively. Brazed or thermal joints are preferred, using a brazing alloy more noble than at least one of the metals to be joined
Avoid making combinations where the area of the less noble, anodic metal is relatively small compared with the area of the more noble metal.
Apply coatings with judgment. Example: Do not paint the less noble metal without also painting the more noble; otherwise, greatly accelerated attack may be concentrated at imperfections in coatings on the less noble metal. Keep such coatings in good repair.
Consider use of cathodic protection.
from http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Air...alv-design.htm
for those of you considering running only 25% coolant and 75% water and especially using tap water, read this... it also explains electrolysis specific to radiator failure in some passages.
http://www.imcool.com/articles/antif...dradsgobad.htm
Last edited by alexdimen; Mar 5, 2006 at 06:41 PM.
ok, well hopefully this information will be of some help. if you didn't guess, my interest was piqued by this thread, so let me share what i found...
First off, sorry, i was wrong... electrolysis can happen with a set up like this. It can happen because of differences between metals used in the engine system, coolant/H2O with free ions, and more importantly leaking voltage from the electrical system or accesories/components like a rubber mounted transmission or starter generating a voltage.
Chemical corrosion is supposedly more common. It's prevalent on welded joints when bad water has been used and/or an insufficient amount of coolant has been used. It seems to me that you should actually use more coolant with a NEW radiator so that the inhibitor chemicals are concentrated enough to give it a preliminary coating and then continue to protect it. Corrosion can supposedly kill a radiator just as fast as electolysis.
Sounds like electrolysis and corrosion can also work in tandem, electrolysis depletes corrosion inhibitors in the coolant and then they both go to work at the aluminum.
here is a test procedure for electrolysis i thought sounded very thorough:
Electrolysis facts
An electrical current passing through the coolant can cause system component failures, due to electrical ground problems and the generation of static electricity elsewhere in the vehicle. Electrical grounding problems can stem from poor installation of aftermarket accessories or incorrect vehicle collision damage repairs. This can destroy cooling system components regardless of the quality of cooling system maintenance. Depending on conditions it can be as quick as sixty days to ruin a radiator. The only way it can be stopped is to correct the electrical problem causing the current. Damage resulting from an electrical current can be pitted liners, oil coolers, radiators, extreme aluminum corrosion, and abnormal water pump and head gasket failure.
Testing for electrolysis in cooling systems
A voltmeter capable of reading both AC and DC currents is required to test cooling systems. The meter needs to read zero to the maximum voltage of the system being tested in tenths of a volt. The meter leads must be long enough to reach between the coolant and the groundside of the battery. An ohm function of a voltmeter is very helpful to pinpoint areas of resistance in as electrical system that will cause an electrical current to ground through the coolant rather than the engineered electrical circuit.
Procedure
Attach the proper meter lead to the groundside of the battery, negative-to-negative or positive-to-positive.
Install the second lead in the coolant touching the coolant only.
Read the DC and AC voltage with all systems off. If a block heater is present, also take a reading with the heater turned on. If an automatic battery charger is present, as a standby system, also take a reading with this system running.
Read the DC and AC voltage with the electrical starter engaged.
Read the DC and the AC voltage with the engine running and all systems turned on: lights, coolers, fans, heaters, air conditioning, cell phone, two-way radio, including the phone and radio on both standby and transmit.
The above procedure will test a complete system except for an electrical current, which can be generated by the rear end transmission. This is particularly true with air bag suspensions, rubber pad suspensions and rubber-mounted transmissions. Any current generated will travel up to the drive shaft to ground through the engine coolant. Grounding rear ends and transmissions is strongly recommended.
Voltage of zero to .3 is normal in a coolant of cast iron engine. Such an engine will be destroyed with time by .5 volts, and engine manufactures are reporting .15 volts will destroy an aluminum engine.
The current will be AC if the problem is due to static electricity.
If the coolant shows an electrical problem with all the equipment turned on; turn off one system at a time until you finally turn off the system that stops the electrical current. When the current stops, this will indicate the electrical system causing the problem.
Be partially careful of starters. They can cause as much damage to a cooling system as a direct connection to an arc welder. This is due to the amperage present.
Always change the coolant if a current is detected. The electrical current will destroy the protecting chemicals in a properly inhibited coolant.
that was from http://www.rondavisradiators.com/tech.htm
sorry if i'm sounding like mr. wizard and sh*t, just trying to edumacate myself
First off, sorry, i was wrong... electrolysis can happen with a set up like this. It can happen because of differences between metals used in the engine system, coolant/H2O with free ions, and more importantly leaking voltage from the electrical system or accesories/components like a rubber mounted transmission or starter generating a voltage.
Chemical corrosion is supposedly more common. It's prevalent on welded joints when bad water has been used and/or an insufficient amount of coolant has been used. It seems to me that you should actually use more coolant with a NEW radiator so that the inhibitor chemicals are concentrated enough to give it a preliminary coating and then continue to protect it. Corrosion can supposedly kill a radiator just as fast as electolysis.
Sounds like electrolysis and corrosion can also work in tandem, electrolysis depletes corrosion inhibitors in the coolant and then they both go to work at the aluminum.
here is a test procedure for electrolysis i thought sounded very thorough:
Electrolysis facts
An electrical current passing through the coolant can cause system component failures, due to electrical ground problems and the generation of static electricity elsewhere in the vehicle. Electrical grounding problems can stem from poor installation of aftermarket accessories or incorrect vehicle collision damage repairs. This can destroy cooling system components regardless of the quality of cooling system maintenance. Depending on conditions it can be as quick as sixty days to ruin a radiator. The only way it can be stopped is to correct the electrical problem causing the current. Damage resulting from an electrical current can be pitted liners, oil coolers, radiators, extreme aluminum corrosion, and abnormal water pump and head gasket failure.
Testing for electrolysis in cooling systems
A voltmeter capable of reading both AC and DC currents is required to test cooling systems. The meter needs to read zero to the maximum voltage of the system being tested in tenths of a volt. The meter leads must be long enough to reach between the coolant and the groundside of the battery. An ohm function of a voltmeter is very helpful to pinpoint areas of resistance in as electrical system that will cause an electrical current to ground through the coolant rather than the engineered electrical circuit.
Procedure
Attach the proper meter lead to the groundside of the battery, negative-to-negative or positive-to-positive.
Install the second lead in the coolant touching the coolant only.
Read the DC and AC voltage with all systems off. If a block heater is present, also take a reading with the heater turned on. If an automatic battery charger is present, as a standby system, also take a reading with this system running.
Read the DC and AC voltage with the electrical starter engaged.
Read the DC and the AC voltage with the engine running and all systems turned on: lights, coolers, fans, heaters, air conditioning, cell phone, two-way radio, including the phone and radio on both standby and transmit.
The above procedure will test a complete system except for an electrical current, which can be generated by the rear end transmission. This is particularly true with air bag suspensions, rubber pad suspensions and rubber-mounted transmissions. Any current generated will travel up to the drive shaft to ground through the engine coolant. Grounding rear ends and transmissions is strongly recommended.
Voltage of zero to .3 is normal in a coolant of cast iron engine. Such an engine will be destroyed with time by .5 volts, and engine manufactures are reporting .15 volts will destroy an aluminum engine.
The current will be AC if the problem is due to static electricity.
If the coolant shows an electrical problem with all the equipment turned on; turn off one system at a time until you finally turn off the system that stops the electrical current. When the current stops, this will indicate the electrical system causing the problem.
Be partially careful of starters. They can cause as much damage to a cooling system as a direct connection to an arc welder. This is due to the amperage present.
Always change the coolant if a current is detected. The electrical current will destroy the protecting chemicals in a properly inhibited coolant.
that was from http://www.rondavisradiators.com/tech.htm
sorry if i'm sounding like mr. wizard and sh*t, just trying to edumacate myself
