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As you may have seen in another recent thread I posted, I'm trying to determine what size turbo I'll end up with. As a result of my endeavors, I've realized that pump gas simply won't support my power goals. I'm not looking for insane power levels, but I'm really just not wanting to have to worry about where my next tank of race gas is coming from. Not only that, but 93 octane isn't always 93 so tuning on the edge isn't realistic these days. End game? I want to make a reliable 400whp and have a meaty power band down low with the EFR-7670 turbo.
*Enter E85*
I'm under the impression I'll be able to make significantly more power on E85. I live in Dallas and have quite a few E85 stations near my house so finding it is not that big of an issue. I know I'll need about 30% more fuel delivery and I THINK I'm prepared. I have the Rotary Performance fuel pump, stock primaries, and 2200cc secondaries. I believe I'll need an Adaptronic ECU with a Flex Fuel sensor and new fuel lines. What else am I missing? Is it that simple? And if E85 isn't available, does the ECU just revert to a 93 pump gas tune on the fly?
Questions
1) Is my injector and fuel pump setup sufficient for my power goal of 400whp?
2) Can the Adaptronic ECU be set to recognize whether 93, E85, or a hybrid mix of the two is in the tank? And if it can, does it have the ability to automatically adjust the tune to meet the available fuel's capability?
3) New fuel lines that are E85 safe....what else?
4) Is premix required?
5) Why aren't more people running E85? Seems like a great way to break the pump gas HP barrier. I'm guessing because it's hard to find?
As always, if anyone has a good link where I can do some reading that would be stellar. I've been able to find individual threads with bits and pieces of knowledge but I haven't seen an official E85 thread with verifiable info.
Have you talked to Turblown? They are the Adaptronic distributor and can answer your Adaptronic questions.
5) Why aren't more people running E85? Seems like a great way to break the pump gas HP barrier. I'm guessing because it's hard to find?
Widespread adoption of E85 has only been big in the past 5-10 years (especially with flex fuel kits) in the modding scene. And these cars are old. So you've got a ton of owners who had already invested $Texas into their setups, and were already committed to a Power FC (which has no flex fuel support) for example, so they aren't going to immediately switch. Plus water injection is popular.
Have you talked to Turblown? They are the Adaptronic distributor and can answer your Adaptronic questions.
Widespread adoption of E85 has only been big in the past 5-10 years (especially with flex fuel kits) in the modding scene. And these cars are old. So you've got a ton of owners who had already invested $Texas into their setups, and were already committed to a Power FC (which has no flex fuel support) for example, so they aren't going to immediately switch. Plus water injection is popular.
Good points. And yes, I ended up talking to Turbosource about 2 hours ago. Very helpful and very knowledgable on E85. Got a lot of questions answered. Sounds like I should be on the right track thus far.
PS: Nice SNL reference Burt Reynolds
Originally Posted by Sgtblue
Might be worth repeating. Cheap and easier to add than E85 IMO and comes with cooling. Go water/methanol and you get lower IATs too.
Originally Posted by arghx
^ you're trading one set of complications for another. depends on OP's preference.
That's my perspective too. One isn't easier than the other, just different. One thing that's appealing is a setup that's READY for ethanol (but doesn't REQUIRE it) really only needs a handful more parts for my setup. Pretty much just trade out my Apexi PowerFC for an Adaptronic ECU and FLex Fuel sensor and I'm off and running.
Originally Posted by Fuhnortoner
E85 @ 400HP? Be ready to fuel up every 75 miles.
Yes, that's if I plan to run E85 exclusively. But truth be told, I can still run 93 octane and the ECU will adapt the tune to the lower power map. The other benefit is that E85 is way cheaper than 93 (at least in my area). So yeah I'll spend a little more time at the pump but I'm not worried about it. I have a Toyota Tacoma that I rock most of the time anyway.
I run e85 in my other car (not a rotary). I wouldn't have it any other way. It burns both slower and cooler thus reducing the potential for knock. However, you can still knock and blow your engine if not tuning properly but it does raise the safety threshold. Not to mention that ethanol smells great and is usually cheaper
1) Is my injector and fuel pump setup sufficient for my power goal of 400whp?
Might be a little close, wouldn't hurt to go to some ID1000 primaries while you're in there. I don't know about your pump, but Walbro 450 for e85 is always a solid choice.
2) Can the Adaptronic ECU be set to recognize whether 93, E85, or a hybrid mix of the two is in the tank? And if it can, does it have the ability to automatically adjust the tune to meet the available fuel's capability?
Yes to all of that.
3) New fuel lines that are E85 safe....what else?
It would be wise to flush/clean any components that you are going to re use. Consider an e85 compatible filter as well. Normal premix turns into this tacky stuff that clogs filters/injectors/pumps etc so getting the gas tank cleaned out it wise.
4) Is premix required?
I would still run it especially if you are not using an OMP. There are specific types that are both alcohol and gas compatible like the Redline Synthetic Alcohol 2 cycle oil.
5) Why aren't more people running E85? Seems like a great way to break the pump gas HP barrier. I'm guessing because it's hard to find?
Availability, cost of converting to engine management that can handle flex fuel, cost of upgrading fuel system, etc etc.
Originally Posted by ItalynStylion
I've also read that E85 runs cooler than pump gas. Is there any truth to that? And if so, is it noticeable? If so, that's a big benefit in my opinion.
Yes. E85 will take a lot of heat out of incoming air and burn cooler. Most road course cars that convert to it that I've seen, have big drops in coolant and oil temps on track, lower EGT and it cools charge temps as well. (I run it in a naturally aspirated Miata racecar, works great.)
1) Is my injector and fuel pump setup sufficient for my power goal of 400whp?
Might be a little close, wouldn't hurt to go to some ID1000 primaries while you're in there. I don't know about your pump, but Walbro 450 for e85 is always a solid choice.
2) Can the Adaptronic ECU be set to recognize whether 93, E85, or a hybrid mix of the two is in the tank? And if it can, does it have the ability to automatically adjust the tune to meet the available fuel's capability?
Yes to all of that.
3) New fuel lines that are E85 safe....what else?
It would be wise to flush/clean any components that you are going to re use. Consider an e85 compatible filter as well. Normal premix turns into this tacky stuff that clogs filters/injectors/pumps etc so getting the gas tank cleaned out it wise.
4) Is premix required?
I would still run it especially if you are not using an OMP. There are specific types that are both alcohol and gas compatible like the Redline Synthetic Alcohol 2 cycle oil.
5) Why aren't more people running E85? Seems like a great way to break the pump gas HP barrier. I'm guessing because it's hard to find?
Availability, cost of converting to engine management that can handle flex fuel, cost of upgrading fuel system, etc etc.
Yes. E85 will take a lot of heat out of incoming air and burn cooler. Most road course cars that convert to it that I've seen, have big drops in coolant and oil temps on track, lower EGT and it cools charge temps as well. (I run it in a naturally aspirated Miata racecar, works great.)
All great info. I too was thinking it might be wise to upgrade the stock primaries. The fuel pump is this one linked below. RX7.COM | FD Fuel System
I've never used premix before but I think you're right. A good cleaning for a bunch of items would be wise.
Do your research on the buildup you will get on your ports running E85 and premix. I had buildup in my ports after about 900 miles. Ethanol and oil don't mix. I decided to go back to 93 and meth to avoid this buildup... And double my gas mileage! You will take a hit on power but it's worth it.
we switched the race car, a Miata to E85 last year, and here is what we've learned.
switching is easy, we just added ~30% fuel, and it ran ok. we did spend some time on the dyno fine tuning things but, we would have had to do that anyways. completely stock fuel system too. you will need to see if you have enough injector/pump to add 40% (you want a little margin)
it made more power everywhere. even a non turbo miata picked up a few hp. crucially since we're limited to 136hp, we were able to make more power down low, and when you add the VVT, it made 136hp from something like 5000-6500.
temps do seem to be lower, although its hard to say by how much. too many variables.
it seems to be a nicer fuel to be around, it smells nicer. it is still fuel though, and after a dyno session you might smell like a potato chip, but you'll still have the headache.
on the minus side, the E85 will find all the crud in your tank and clog the fuel filters, plan on changing these shortly after you switch. also plan on changing the fuel pump, E85 is less lubricatory than gasoline, pumps will live shorter lives. i wouldn't change your pump right now, but plan on changing it in the near future.
E85 is really insensitive to mixture. its harder to tune when the car runs the same @10:1 as it does @14:1.
you will need some kind of E85 compatible premix, and more of it.
so all in all E85 is a really nice race fuel, and switching has been pretty painless.
E85 only here with adaptronics Ecu no flex fuel sensor. 420whp stock 850 injectors in the primary rail 2200 secondaries, Walbro 450 pump stock fuel filter and fuel lines up to the firewall.
On a street ported engine with almost 10,000 miles on this setup and no issues.
I daily drive the car when I want to and drive it to and from track events. I have recorded a consistent average of 15 mpg with spirited driving.
Shawn and Elliot at Turblown have been very helpful with all my needs.
Larger primaries wouldn't be a bad idea. They did recommend an aftermarket fuel filter and I have just been living dangerously...
You can get a cheap e85 test kit, find a local station that has proven 85% ethanol fuel and tune your car using that fuel.
Yes, that's if I plan to run E85 exclusively. But truth be told, I can still run 93 octane and the ECU will adapt the tune to the lower power map. The other benefit is that E85 is way cheaper than 93 (at least in my area). So yeah I'll spend a little more time at the pump but I'm not worried about it. I have a Toyota Tacoma that I rock most of the time anyway.
Just seems like a lot of trouble to me when comparing it to Water/Meth Injection.
E85 is really insensitive to mixture. its harder to tune when the car runs the same @10:1 as it does @14:1.
you will need some kind of E85 compatible premix, and more of it.
What do you mean by the first statement? Can you explain that a little bit?
And I've never run premix before. Why is it necessary? Just because it's a less lubricated fuel?
Originally Posted by GMO-RX7
Shawn and Elliot at Turblown have been very helpful with all my needs.
Larger primaries wouldn't be a bad idea. They did recommend an aftermarket fuel filter and I have just been living dangerously...
Shawn was very helpful when talking to him yesterday too. One thing he said is that I may want to upgrade my ID2200 injectors to an ID1750 they have. I was at least pretty sure my current injectors were compatible though. Any thought on that?
Originally Posted by Fuhnortoner
Just seems like a lot of trouble to me when comparing it to Water/Meth Injection.
I'm under the impression that Water/Meth injection is more of a band-aid for a problem that originates with inferior fuel.
It does depend on preference, and it sounds like the OP has made up his mind. But can you elaborate?
Ok, I will briefly outline some points... this is if you go "all out" in both systems, rather than taking the quicker and cheaper alternatives:
E85 concerns
- Tendency to build up on injectors that requires cycling of E0/E10 in once in a while for "clean out"
- Basically have to tune the engine twice (once on E85, once on E0/E10, and then you really should check at intermediate blends).
- Need to size the fuel system larger, and depending on power goals that could get you to the point of needing complicated fuel lines and pumps and filters
- Lower range per tank of fuel due to less energy per mass of ethanol
- Much preferred to have an actual flex fuel ECU rather than swapping maps in a system that can't do it. Otherwise you need to be concerned about the blend changing with the seasons and with the different filling stations you go to
E0/E10 with water/meth injection
- Need to fit the parts into the engine bay
- Need to maintain a separate tank of water/meth
- Need a series of failsafes in case you run out of water/meth or there is some problem with the system
- Need to tune the engine twice (confirm it runs ok on water/meth and without), but not to the same extent as on E85; only at heavy loads.
- Need some sort of system to control it, preferably fully integrated into the main ECU rather than a bunch of clunky boxes and switches and wires
What do you mean by the first statement? Can you explain that a little bit?
And I've never run premix before. Why is it necessary? Just because it's a less lubricated fuel?
On E0/E10, the engine responds more (in terms of power and knock) as you change the AFR under heavy loads. Change the mixture around on E85 and you notice less of an effect, or less of a sensitivity.
I'll pass on the premix question, I'm not a premix guy. I avoid it all costs on my own personal stuff. Because I'm lazy.
Shawn was very helpful when talking to him yesterday too. One thing he said is that I may want to upgrade my ID2200 injectors to an ID1750 they have. I was at least pretty sure my current injectors were compatible though. Any thought on that?
He wanted you to get an injector rated for less flow? What's so special about what he's selling? I would ask for clarification. All injectors have tendency towards build up with E85. You have to cycle E0/E10 in once in a while. This isn't a rotary thing, it's a well known concern with E85.
I'm under the impression that Water/Meth injection is more of a band-aid for a problem that originates with inferior fuel.
We can go back and forth on that issue all day, but suffice it to say that Rx-7's were never designed to make anywhere near the amount of power people push through them. So naturally you need to have work around for that. Pick your poison. Stock engines at stock power might lose compression after enough miles but they don't knock themselves to death. Stress the engine more and knocking is a big concern.
AEMs kit comes with a warning light and a fail safe wire
yup. if you want to buy an AEM kit. If you want to mount warning lights in your car. If you want a seperate box controlling a critical engine function, and not have it integrated with the main control system of the engine. Most people have zero problems with that. There's nothing really "wrong" with it, but it's not how I prefer to do it.
Never heard of having to do this.
Preference. You can just start spraying water/meth when starting tuning, tune it to run on water/meth only, and have a boost cut failsafe. That's the quicker way. Or you can tune the whole car with no water/meth, tune it fully with water/meth running, and integrate that into your control system. Most people don't want to do that, understandably so.
Clunky boxes?
preference. Any box is a clunky box to me. Anything that is not fully integrated into the ECU is something I don't prefer to do. Most people aren't like me. I want to design and integrate everything so that your grandma would never know it's any different from a regular car. So take that for what it's worth. I'm at the extreme end of the spectrum.
On E0/E10, the engine responds more (in terms of power and knock) as you change the AFR under heavy loads. Change the mixture around on E85 and you notice less of an effect, or less of a sensitivity.
Gotcha. So E85 is more tolerant or lenient on tuning. That's a pretty big plus in my opinion.
I'll pass on the premix question, I'm not a premix guy. I avoid it all costs on my own personal stuff. Because I'm lazy.
Honestly, if it's not critical I'd prefer to avoid it too. I've never ran it in my FD and I've never need a need.
He wanted you to get an injector rated for less flow? What's so special about what he's selling? I would ask for clarification. All injectors have tendency towards build up with E85. You have to cycle E0/E10 in once in a while. This isn't a rotary thing, it's a well known concern with E85.
He'd suggested I use slightly larger primaries and get the ID1700cc injectors because they have stainless steel internals (or something like that) that's more corrosion resistant. He seemed to think my ID2200 may not work well over time with E85. Not sure what the reasoning was though. The ID2200 injectors I'm running are in the link below and the website says, "Ideal for E85 applications". Injector Dynamics ID2200cc Injector - Full-Race.com
Definitely considering upgrading the primaries though. Now I'm wondering if I miss-heard him and he was talking about replacing the primaries with the ID1700? I'll have to clarify. And I'm fine running some normal 93 octane through the tank once in a while. In fact, I don't even intend to run E85 all the time. Having the option to choose is a huge benefit in my opinion.
Last edited by ItalynStylion; 09-07-16 at 10:03 AM.
What do you mean by the first statement? Can you explain that a little bit?
And I've never run premix before. Why is it necessary? Just because it's a less lubricated fuel?
the longer answer to the insensitive to mixture part, is that with Gasoline an engine usually is pretty specific about a mixture where it runs the best. at idle a given engine usually has a pretty narrow window of AFR's where it runs best. on a rotary its usually somewhere around 12.5:1 give or take, and going .5 richer or leaner it runs worse. with E85 you have a much wider range where it runs "best", our miata is like 3 AFR points...
at WOT we basically loose 5 hp going from 10:1 AFR to 14:1 AFR on E85. on gasoline it wouldn't run that rich, and 14:1 @wot would be in the range of breaking stuff, if you did it, you'd probably see a 50+ hp swing.
you might say this is better, but its worse, because its really hard to tell if you're too rich or too lean. or maybe gasoline forces you to be more careful, or bring a bucket and a mop or something.
i say premix because gasoline, being an oil derivative has some lubrication, E85 isn't so it doesn't. if you do a little searching you'll find a bunch of craziness about premixes, but anything E85 or alcohol rated should do ok.
I've been experimenting with E50 on my turbo Renesis , the main reason for going with it (vs E85)was that it offers better mileage for a street car while maintaining most of the benefits.
Have never seen any mention of it on this forum , just wondered if it was worth considering for you guys ?
Here are the differences as I understand them:
*very close to same knock resistance/octane as E85 (have seen a scientific study on this)
*Less fuel delivery requirement
*More lubricity due to petrol content (omp should provide sufficient lubrication so no need for premix...perhaps ?)
*Better mileage/range for a street car
*slightly less power potential?
*Fewer issues with filtration/buildup etc as mentioned earlier in this thread .... maybe ?
09-06-16, 10:45 AM
