Does 500 rwhp make an FD more enjoyable to drive? (13b only)
12-01-10, 04:41 PM
#576
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996 GT3 RS
The Porsche 911 GT3 RS is a high-performance sports car built by Porsche since 2003. It is often confused with the Porsche 911 GT3 RS racecar of 2001 and later, which was based on the Porsche 911 GT3 R of 2000.
The RS (short for the German RennSport, literally "racing sport" in English) is mainly a carryover of the Porsche 911 GT3, albeit it is lighter thanks to a polycarbonate rear window, carbon fiber hood and rear wing. Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) Carbon fibre-reinforced Silicon Carbide (C/SiC) ceramic composite brakes, which are also more heat and fade resistant than the cast iron units fitted as standard, are optional.
The RS has a slightly different engine specification to the GT3. The cylinder heads of the GT3 RS have reshaped intake and exhaust ports for race homologation. Porsche claim the same 381 hp (284 kW) power output as the standard GT3 but Porsche's control dyno showed a jump to nearly 400 hp (298 kW)
The RS has progressive springs rather than linear. The dampers are uprated and are between 10 and 15 percent stiffer than the normal GT3 in bounce and rebound.
The wheel carriers are totally redesigned to maximize the improved dynamic camber control. The suspension top mounts can be turned 120 degrees to a cup car position. Both front and rear control arms are adjustable. The RS is 3 mm (0.1 in) lower than the standard car.
The RS rear wing delivers 35 kg (77 lb) of downforce at 125 mph (201 km/h). The RS has ram air ducts on the engine bay which force air into the intake with 18Mb of pressure at 187 mph (301 km/h) and this is enough to create an additional 15 bhp (11 kW; 15 PS). That extra bhp cannot be homologated since the official engine output figures are certified on a dyno.
Automobile magazines claim the GT3 RS can accelerate from 0-60 mph in about 4.3 seconds, maintain over 1.0g on the skidpad, and have a top speed of around 190 mph (306 km/h).
I hope the GT3 RS is faster than a stock US spec Rx7, 400 hp vs 255 hp. I still believe with similar upgrades to the Rx7, it would be faster, and significantly cheaper.
The Porsche 911 GT3 RS is a high-performance sports car built by Porsche since 2003. It is often confused with the Porsche 911 GT3 RS racecar of 2001 and later, which was based on the Porsche 911 GT3 R of 2000.
The RS (short for the German RennSport, literally "racing sport" in English) is mainly a carryover of the Porsche 911 GT3, albeit it is lighter thanks to a polycarbonate rear window, carbon fiber hood and rear wing. Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) Carbon fibre-reinforced Silicon Carbide (C/SiC) ceramic composite brakes, which are also more heat and fade resistant than the cast iron units fitted as standard, are optional.
The RS has a slightly different engine specification to the GT3. The cylinder heads of the GT3 RS have reshaped intake and exhaust ports for race homologation. Porsche claim the same 381 hp (284 kW) power output as the standard GT3 but Porsche's control dyno showed a jump to nearly 400 hp (298 kW)
The RS has progressive springs rather than linear. The dampers are uprated and are between 10 and 15 percent stiffer than the normal GT3 in bounce and rebound.
The wheel carriers are totally redesigned to maximize the improved dynamic camber control. The suspension top mounts can be turned 120 degrees to a cup car position. Both front and rear control arms are adjustable. The RS is 3 mm (0.1 in) lower than the standard car.
The RS rear wing delivers 35 kg (77 lb) of downforce at 125 mph (201 km/h). The RS has ram air ducts on the engine bay which force air into the intake with 18Mb of pressure at 187 mph (301 km/h) and this is enough to create an additional 15 bhp (11 kW; 15 PS). That extra bhp cannot be homologated since the official engine output figures are certified on a dyno.
Automobile magazines claim the GT3 RS can accelerate from 0-60 mph in about 4.3 seconds, maintain over 1.0g on the skidpad, and have a top speed of around 190 mph (306 km/h).
I hope the GT3 RS is faster than a stock US spec Rx7, 400 hp vs 255 hp. I still believe with similar upgrades to the Rx7, it would be faster, and significantly cheaper.
12-01-10, 05:07 PM
#578
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I think cars like the GT3 are for people who have no imagination and want somebody else to build a fast car for them. But, on the other hand you have cars like ours which are essentially a blank canvas. You can build them for auto x, drag racing, road racing, etc. I doubt very many GT3 owners tear into their cars and work on them like we do. I agree that from the factory the GT3 is the faster car, but at a much higher price.
I think you are kidding yourself if you don’t think a moderately built Rx7 can handle itself on the track against these other types of cars. I am not sure why you keep arguing the facts with people who clearly prove you wrong. Fritz posted the video, now the driver isn’t good enough, I posted lap times of a car with only 280 hp that lost by like half a second to your prestigious GT3 and you go find a lap time from a GT3 RS; talk about straw man arguments. I think you need to reevaluate the car you chose to buy.
I personally like the idea of having something different, and by different I mean more than just the color choice at the Porsche dealership.
I think you are kidding yourself if you don’t think a moderately built Rx7 can handle itself on the track against these other types of cars. I am not sure why you keep arguing the facts with people who clearly prove you wrong. Fritz posted the video, now the driver isn’t good enough, I posted lap times of a car with only 280 hp that lost by like half a second to your prestigious GT3 and you go find a lap time from a GT3 RS; talk about straw man arguments. I think you need to reevaluate the car you chose to buy.
I personally like the idea of having something different, and by different I mean more than just the color choice at the Porsche dealership.
12-01-10, 05:22 PM
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12-01-10, 05:34 PM
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Fritz posted the video
I posted lap times of a car with only 280 hp that lost by like half a second to your prestigious GT3
and you go find a lap time from a GT3 RS
talk about straw man arguments
I think you need to reevaluate the car you chose to buy.
I personally like the idea of having something different, and by different I mean more than just the color choice at the Porsche dealership.
Last edited by no_more_rice; 12-01-10 at 05:39 PM.
12-01-10, 05:37 PM
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The mag pros suck and aren't competitive (talk about BS)
I have an unfair adv because I've been around VIR 100 times (I've only driven the grand E course twice or on 2 different days) Even if I had a pro driver will find the line looking at the track map. Seriously a pro driver can tell you what his lap time will be before he even takes a warm up lap he just needs to know the distance and see a track map.
The day was different. I can't remember what month the vid took place but I don't think it was cool it was probably a hot summer day. Bottomline is unless it's raining the time won't vary tremendously.
I'm not a pro racer racing another pro racer with an official race time but when I am a pro racer in the same class racing another GT3 you'll accept that info, HOLY **** STRAW MAN!!!!!
You can't beat a cup car STRAW MAN!!!!
What if the P car is modded STRAW MAN!!!!
ON and ON..................
I'm glad you think the FD isn't too shabby for a 17 year old car thanks for that acknowledgement
12-01-10, 05:44 PM
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Blah - at this point it's gang warfare with the same people repeating the same argument over and over, let'e move on. Your FD can blow any GT3 off any track, whatever you want to believe, I could care less at this point.
Btw Fritz I used to think you were pretty sharp but many of your posts read like a junior high punk. I'll take my business elsewhere now.
Btw Fritz I used to think you were pretty sharp but many of your posts read like a junior high punk. I'll take my business elsewhere now.
12-01-10, 06:01 PM
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While the RS times may be fact they are not relevant to this discussion. You might call it a "what if" on the lap times, but common sense says with a few more hp the RX7 would be faster. How much hp do you really need to pick up half a second? I am just deducing that the hypothetical 70 hp difference would be enough.
12-01-10, 06:13 PM
#585
I think what you're doing is stipulating an unattainable level of "evidence" as the standard for your "convincing", because you know full well such evidence doesn't exist, and thus you won't have to "lose" the debate.
Nobody has rented a private track and pitted Fritz's or The Wird's FD against a GT3 with Randy Pobst running back to back laps in both cars.
FD's don't typically "race" GT3's because FD's were raced very little at any pro level, and out of homologation before the GT3 even came out.
So, intelligent reasonable people must/can come to a conclusion by extrapolating the data they do have. So I don't have to go back through the 25 page thread, what's the best posted magazine tester/advanced track day time for a STOCK GT3 at VIR?
Nobody has rented a private track and pitted Fritz's or The Wird's FD against a GT3 with Randy Pobst running back to back laps in both cars.
FD's don't typically "race" GT3's because FD's were raced very little at any pro level, and out of homologation before the GT3 even came out.
So, intelligent reasonable people must/can come to a conclusion by extrapolating the data they do have. So I don't have to go back through the 25 page thread, what's the best posted magazine tester/advanced track day time for a STOCK GT3 at VIR?
12-01-10, 06:23 PM
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"Doesn't exist" is a stretch, "hard to find" - yes. Regardless it's an interesting question that doesn't have to degrade to ad hominem.
12-01-10, 06:25 PM
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Blah - at this point it's gang warfare with the same people repeating the same argument over and over, let'e move on. Your FD can blow any GT3 off any track, whatever you want to believe, I could care less at this point.
Btw Fritz I used to think you were pretty sharp but many of your posts read like a junior high punk. I'll take my business elsewhere now.
Btw Fritz I used to think you were pretty sharp but many of your posts read like a junior high punk. I'll take my business elsewhere now.
Nothing but love there killer but you do scare me a little so that's probably for the best
12-01-10, 08:03 PM
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in the attached pic, the car on the right beat the car on the left by 60+ laps. the RACE was the 2009 25 hours of thunderhill. so you can look up the results.
BTW we did our best lap ever at thunderhill that weekend, 2:02.9. which is not bad at all for 139hp at the front wheels. http://www.fastestlaps.com/track73.html
i realize the car with the lower HP number beat the higher hp one, but this happens all the time in real life.
12-01-10, 09:19 PM
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No_more_rice... I think your positions are getting pretty hammered. Don't be an Obama. Accept what the people are telling you. Think about it.
When it is pointed out that the Porsche is a fundamentally flawed design, whereas the FD is state of the art from scratch, you claim that's a "matter of personal preference? No, its not. Since the original 356 and all 911's were introduced, the automotive press has universally noted that placing the engine behind the rear axle creates a horrible condition for handling, because the car is essentially like a pendulum. This resulted in the dreaded "snap oversteer" that caused so many to die over the years lifting off when they went in too hot. That's why the Cayman handles so much better than the 911. Its mid-engined...
I think you must remember that the mid-engined location is the preferred engineering solution because the mass is centered between the wheels. This is not a matter of personal preference or opinion. Its physics. And, if you don't understand fundamentals like this, its really hard for those who do to deal with your comments.
Gordon
When it is pointed out that the Porsche is a fundamentally flawed design, whereas the FD is state of the art from scratch, you claim that's a "matter of personal preference? No, its not. Since the original 356 and all 911's were introduced, the automotive press has universally noted that placing the engine behind the rear axle creates a horrible condition for handling, because the car is essentially like a pendulum. This resulted in the dreaded "snap oversteer" that caused so many to die over the years lifting off when they went in too hot. That's why the Cayman handles so much better than the 911. Its mid-engined...
I think you must remember that the mid-engined location is the preferred engineering solution because the mass is centered between the wheels. This is not a matter of personal preference or opinion. Its physics. And, if you don't understand fundamentals like this, its really hard for those who do to deal with your comments.
Gordon
Something even easier to understand would be power to weight but that doesn't seem to compute either.
GT3 weight 3050
GT3 power 400 Flywheel
FD 2650
FD HP 400 Flywheel
That's not a fair race no matter how you slice it.
12-01-10, 09:35 PM
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*sigh* Somehow this thread went from me questioning the ability of an FD to "destroy" a GT3 to all of a sudden I worship Porsche. That's not the case. I'm well aware that the rear mid-engine layout of the Cayman S is generally considered superior to the 911. That's ancient news. Regardless, some do prefer rear engine layout cars. You have a strong view on the subject but others on different forums have equally strong opposing views. This forum doesn't necessarily have the most open minded members.
12-01-10, 09:35 PM
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This FD vs. GT3 argument has gotten sidetracked, off track and overdriven. It is impossible to compare 2 cars with all variables accounted for until we develop the perfect driving robots and even then there will still be nonhuman variables. So, what it boils down to for me is...there's something about the *snap, crackle and pop* of an fd that makes me weak in the knees. And the right fd driver can get more of my juices flowing than any Tom, Dick or Harry taking laps in a GT3.
Fritz Flynn, what you doin later tonight?
Fritz Flynn, what you doin later tonight?
12-01-10, 09:37 PM
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12-01-10, 09:41 PM
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This FD vs. GT3 argument has gotten sidetracked, off track and overdriven. It is impossible to compare 2 cars with all variables accounted for until we develop the perfect driving robots and even then there will still be nonhuman variables. So, what it boils down to for me is...there's something about the *snap, crackle and pop* of an fd that makes me weak in the knees. And the right fd driver can get more of my juices flowing than any Tom, Dick or Harry taking laps in a GT3.
Fritz Flynn, what you doin later tonight?
Fritz Flynn, what you doin later tonight?
12-01-10, 09:44 PM
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Simple minded post, but it's not that simple and the GT-R proves it. Funny how you didn't trot out the power-to-weight ratios when you were slobbering all over yourself about the GT-R.
12-01-10, 09:49 PM
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You're at least making more sense than your thick skull husband. It's a complex issue. The only way to resolve it would be to compare lap times for professional drivers at various tracks, and that's not going to happen.
12-01-10, 09:56 PM
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This article may or may not be understood by you: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._analysis.html